[Discussion/Proposal] Taking Advantage of the Florida Panthers

[Diamonds]

The Florida Panthers are in for a very rough summer with a number of players in line for substantial raises. Reinhart, Forsling, and Montour are all due at least a $2M increase and Lundell probably around a $2M raise. Reinhart and Forsling could easily both be needing $3M+ more than their current contracts. Even Stenlund is likely due a small raise.

 

With so many substantial raises incoming, they will have to let some of their upcoming UFAs go or trade out other salary to make room. This means Florida will likely have to sell low to avoid losing players for nothing.

 

So here are my primary targets:

Luostarinen 

- A defensive specialist. Reminds me of a more physical Mikheyev. An ideal 3rd liner. $1.5M cap hit this year but $3M x 3 year contract starting next year.

Montour

- RHD. I think Florida is more likely to prioritize Forsling leaving Montour as a possible cap casualty. While he's been used in a mostly offensive role by Florida, his previous stints with Buffalo and Anaheim he had a more balanced deployment. Could be a great partner for Zadorov. Expiring contract making $3.5M, next contract likely $5.5M+.

Sam Bennett

- A 2nd line agitator. While he's having a slightly down year offensively, he's still strong defensively and plays a pretty physical game. Can play C and W. $4.425M contract for one more year.

Lundell

- A great 3C. Possible casualty of a Reinhart raise. Still young at 22 with more offensive potential but already a very solid 3C. Expiring contract of $.925M, next contract likely ~$3M bridge.

[Diamonds]

Florida is one of the best defensive teams in the league but has been struggling a bit offensively this season. With that in mind, here are some proposals:

 

Luostarinen for Hoglander one for one.

Improves our PK and adds some more physicality without sacrificing too much offense. Luostarinen is 25 so still pretty young. For Florida, they don't need Luostarinen defensively and Hoglander gives them more offense plus 2M in cap relief next year.

 

Montour + Bennett for Kuzmenko + Myers (50% retained) + 2nd.

Less likely trade, but hard to make the cap work for Montour or Bennett without multiple players involved. Myers at 50% retained gives a RHD for the playoffs to replace Montour while Kuzmenko provides more offense and offensive potential than Bennett. This trade definitely feels more biased in Vancouver's favor. Bennet for Kuzmenko one-for-one doesn't give Florida any cap relief next year and this way they still get something for Montour without weakening the team much this year.

[Miss Korea]

@Diamonds The Florida Panthers are a highly competitive team.  They know they're gonna lose players for nothing.  They don't care.  They want the cup.

[Diamonds]

29 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

@Diamonds The Florida Panthers are a highly competitive team.  They know they're gonna lose players for nothing.  They don't care.  They want the cup.

That's why something like Luostarinen for Hoglander might work. Gives them more scoring for the playoffs but also gives them cap relief next year. A hockey trade.

 

I really like Hoglander but I think Luostarinen is the exact type of forward we can use for the middle 6. Great defensively, physical, and not a black hole offensively. Should benefit both teams.

[Miss Korea]

49 minutes ago, Diamonds said:

That's why something like Luostarinen for Hoglander might work. Gives them more scoring for the playoffs but also gives them cap relief next year. A hockey trade.

 

I really like Hoglander but I think Luostarinen is the exact type of forward we can use for the middle 6. Great defensively, physical, and not a black hole offensively. Should benefit both teams.

 

Everything you mentioned about Luostarinen is true - so why would Florida fuck around and give that up?  They just extended Luostarinen last summer.  He is their guy and they're committed to him. 

 

The Panthers are one of the top teams in the league.  They are not going to take chances by messing with the excellent defensive chemistry they have.  If anything, they might acquire an older veteran on an expiring contract with salary retained.  Either way, they should and will be going all in.  They clearly have what it takes to beat any team in the East.

 

All your proposals clearly downgrade them this year.  That makes absolutely zero sense.  

[Phil_314]

2 hours ago, Diamonds said:

Florida is one of the best defensive teams in the league but has been struggling a bit offensively this season. With that in mind, here are some proposals:

Montour + Bennett for Kuzmenko + Myers (50% retained) + 2nd.

Less likely trade, but hard to make the cap work for Montour or Bennett without multiple players involved. Myers at 50% retained gives a RHD for the playoffs to replace Montour while Kuzmenko provides more offense and offensive potential than Bennett. This trade definitely feels more biased in Vancouver's favor. Bennet for Kuzmenko one-for-one doesn't give Florida any cap relief next year and this way they still get something for Montour without weakening the team much this year.

I haven't kept up with him this season, how is Montour doing defensively?  If I recall correctly, he's been on and off in that regard before?  Myers is still one of our more heavily utilized defensive RD, no?  As long as Montour can fill some of that role and it doesn't add another duty for Hronek as an RHD on the PK after Myers is traded, I could see that being beneficial.  Bennett for Kuzmenko+ would definitely appeal to me, either slotting him as a top-6 winger or a gritty bottom 6 C (and bump someone like Suter to the wing) and we'd have another tough, skilled forward to add to the playoff arsenal (I'd like to have one of Joshua/ Bennett/ Miller on the ice for most of the game, and trading Kuzmenko for him would fit much better for us style-wise).

[HKSR]

3 hours ago, Diamonds said:

The Florida Panthers are in for a very rough summer with a number of players in line for substantial raises. Reinhart, Forsling, and Montour are all due at least a $2M increase and Lundell probably around a $2M raise. Reinhart and Forsling could easily both be needing $3M+ more than their current contracts. Even Stenlund is likely due a small raise.

 

With so many substantial raises incoming, they will have to let some of their upcoming UFAs go or trade out other salary to make room. This means Florida will likely have to sell low to avoid losing players for nothing.

 

So here are my primary targets:

Luostarinen 

- A defensive specialist. Reminds me of a more physical Mikheyev. An ideal 3rd liner. $1.5M cap hit this year but $3M x 3 year contract starting next year.

Montour

- RHD. I think Florida is more likely to prioritize Forsling leaving Montour as a possible cap casualty. While he's been used in a mostly offensive role by Florida, his previous stints with Buffalo and Anaheim he had a more balanced deployment. Could be a great partner for Zadorov. Expiring contract making $3.5M, next contract likely $5.5M+.

Sam Bennett

- A 2nd line agitator. While he's having a slightly down year offensively, he's still strong defensively and plays a pretty physical game. Can play C and W. $4.425M contract for one more year.

Lundell

- A great 3C. Possible casualty of a Reinhart raise. Still young at 22 with more offensive potential but already a very solid 3C. Expiring contract of $.925M, next contract likely ~$3M bridge.

I can't see Florida moving any of these guys unless it's for an upgrade.  UFA or not, top teams don't sell off assets for pennies on the dollar mid season.

[Miss Korea]

Acquiring these guys will also put us into a difficult position.  If we acquire Montour (a D-man who got 73 points last year) or anyone else on an expiring contract, we will have no money to extend them.  So it'll be us making the all-in push.  If we get someone with term, we will be in cap hell this summer.  Even with the cap going up, we have to pay Pettersson, Hronek, Joshua, and of course Ekman-Larsson.  We barely have enough money as it is.

[Miss Korea]

7 minutes ago, Phil_314 said:

I haven't kept up with him this season, how is Montour doing defensively?  If I recall correctly, he's been on and off in that regard before?  Myers is still one of our more heavily utilized defensive RD, no?  As long as Montour can fill some of that role and it doesn't add another duty for Hronek as an RHD on the PK after Myers is traded, I could see that being beneficial.  Bennett for Kuzmenko+ would definitely appeal to me, either slotting him as a top-6 winger or a gritty bottom 6 C (and bump someone like Suter to the wing) and we'd have another tough, skilled forward to add to the playoff arsenal (I'd like to have one of Joshua/ Bennett/ Miller on the ice for most of the game, and trading Kuzmenko for him would fit much better for us style-wise).

 

Again - all these players on the Panthers would make us look better in the playoffs.  So why on earth would they sell them to us in the first place!??  They are in the same position as we are - 25 wins in 39 games.  Do you think a team that good is going to sell at the deadline?  Are you expecting the Canucks to also sell, then?

[Phil_314]

13 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

Again - all these players on the Panthers would make us look better in the playoffs.  So why on earth would they sell them to us in the first place!??  They are in the same position as we are - 25 wins in 39 games.  Do you think a team that good is going to sell at the deadline?  Are you expecting the Canucks to also sell, then?

I'm not saying that I agree with the OP either -- Myers at $6 million + Kuzmenko at $5.5 would be a downgrade to Montour + Bennett, plus they'll cost more.  If they find a system that can utilize Kuzmenko's talents well though, I'd hope we can retain and then make the swap.

Also the logic in your last question is missing.  Just because Florida is good and we're good doesn't mean that I think that because Florida's proposed to be selling due to a future cap crunch, that we'd also be selling.  That's very presumptuous of an association to make of another person you don't even know, and doesn't add to the discussion.  Also what's wrong with entertaining proposals that vary from what you're expecting?  No one likes the fun police.

[Miss Korea]

2 minutes ago, Phil_314 said:

I'm not saying that I agree with the OP either -- Myers at $6 million + Kuzmenko at $5.5 would be a downgrade to Montour + Bennett, plus they'll cost more.  If they find a system that can utilize Kuzmenko's talents well though, I'd hope we can retain and then make the swap.

Also the logic in your last question is missing.  Just because Florida is good and we're good doesn't mean that I think that because Florida's proposed to be selling due to a future cap crunch, that we'd also be selling.  That's very presumptuous of an association to make of another person you don't even know, and doesn't add to the discussion.  Also what's wrong with entertaining proposals that vary from what you're expecting?  No one likes the fun police.

 

This proposal doesn't make any kind of sense.  Florida is literally one of the best teams in the league.  They're 3rd overall in goals against.  They are stingy, physical, defensive team that is miserable to play against.  What the OP is proposing is we take a bunch of their key players away and offer our most overpaid players in return.  There's not a single person who would prefer Myers/Kuzmenko over Montour/Bennett.  To suggest otherwise is madness.  As @HKSR said, can you think of even a single instance where a top team decided to sell their best assets for pennies at the trade deadline?

[Diamonds]

16 hours ago, Phil_314 said:

I haven't kept up with him this season, how is Montour doing defensively?  If I recall correctly, he's been on and off in that regard before?  Myers is still one of our more heavily utilized defensive RD, no?  As long as Montour can fill some of that role and it doesn't add another duty for Hronek as an RHD on the PK after Myers is traded, I could see that being beneficial.  Bennett for Kuzmenko+ would definitely appeal to me, either slotting him as a top-6 winger or a gritty bottom 6 C (and bump someone like Suter to the wing) and we'd have another tough, skilled forward to add to the playoff arsenal (I'd like to have one of Joshua/ Bennett/ Miller on the ice for most of the game, and trading Kuzmenko for him would fit much better for us style-wise).

Montour has been fine this year defensively. He's not playing shutdown caliber defense, but he isn't hurting the team either. He averages almost as much PP time as Hughes does though which gives an idea of his usage.

[Diamonds]

15 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

 

This proposal doesn't make any kind of sense.  Florida is literally one of the best teams in the league.  They're 3rd overall in goals against.  They are stingy, physical, defensive team that is miserable to play against.  What the OP is proposing is we take a bunch of their key players away and offer our most overpaid players in return.  There's not a single person who would prefer Myers/Kuzmenko over Montour/Bennett.  To suggest otherwise is madness.  As @HKSR said, can you think of even a single instance where a top team decided to sell their best assets for pennies at the trade deadline?

Yes, Florida is an incredibly stingy team but they have been struggling to score as well. Even if they decide this is the year to go for it and to deal with the fallout after, they are likely still going to be looking for a piece to boost their offense. Because they are so stingy defensively they can afford to sell some defense for some offense.

 

The Canucks on the other hand have been blowing teams out of the water offensively but at times are still struggling defensively. We are two teams with opposite problems that can potentially address each other's deficits. 

 

You mentioned earlier Montour's 73 points last year, but he's only on a 25 point pace this year. Myers is actually on a higher point pace, but no I don't think a 50% retention Myers is enough for Montour in his own. Yes, Montour deserves a raise over his current $3.5M cap hit but his 73 point season is pretty clearly an outlier as he has never scored over 40 in any other season prior. Montour should be expected to be more of a 30-40 point offensively oriented defenseman. Still good on a 2nd pair but not worth something astronomical.

 

Yes, we're selling low on Kuzmenko right now but he does provide more offense than Bennett who also seems to be reverting back to a 40 point player. Bennett provides an abrasive edge that the Canucks can really use and he might mesh well with Petey or Miller. At the same time, he has only scored more than 20 goals once. On the other hand Kuzmenko scored 39 goals last year (even with an unsustainable shooting percentage) and is still on pace for around 20 this year while having cold stretches and being scratched.

[Miss Korea]

26 minutes ago, Diamonds said:

Yes, Florida is an incredibly stingy team but they have been struggling to score as well. Even if they decide this is the year to go for it and to deal with the fallout after, they are likely still going to be looking for a piece to boost their offense. Because they are so stingy defensively they can afford to sell some defense for some offense.

 

The Canucks on the other hand have been blowing teams out of the water offensively but at times are still struggling defensively. We are two teams with opposite problems that can potentially address each other's deficits. 

 

You mentioned earlier Montour's 73 points last year, but he's only on a 25 point pace this year. Myers is actually on a higher point pace, but no I don't think a 50% retention Myers is enough for Montour in his own. Yes, Montour deserves a raise over his current $3.5M cap hit but his 73 point season is pretty clearly an outlier as he has never scored over 40 in any other season prior. Montour should be expected to be more of a 30-40 point offensively oriented defenseman. Still good on a 2nd pair but not worth something astronomical.

 

Yes, we're selling low on Kuzmenko right now but he does provide more offense than Bennett who also seems to be reverting back to a 40 point player. Bennett provides an abrasive edge that the Canucks can really use and he might mesh well with Petey or Miller. At the same time, he has only scored more than 20 goals once. On the other hand Kuzmenko scored 39 goals last year (even with an unsustainable shooting percentage) and is still on pace for around 20 this year while having cold stretches and being scratched.

 

If they need goals, they can get it from Montour and Tkachuk.  They don't need upgrades.  They are stingy defensively which is exactly why they're winning games.  "Hey we're in a great position right now - let's give up our best playoff performers for Vancouver's overpaid/scratched guys"

 

You are literally proposing Florida to take everything good going for them and start downgrading it.  It makes zero sense, man.

[Diamonds]

8 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

If they need goals, they can get it from Montour and Tkachuk.  They don't need upgrades.  They are stingy defensively which is exactly why they're winning games.  "Hey we're in a great position right now - let's give up our best playoff performers for Vancouver's overpaid/scratched guys"

 

You are literally proposing Florida to take everything good going for them and start downgrading it.  It makes zero sense, man.

I guess we can agree to disagree then. Florida has a ton of great defensive players, losing one of them isn't going to suddenly make them bad defensively. The concept of using an area of strength to address an area of weakness doesn't seem like a crazy foreign concept to me.

 

Kuzmenko + a 3rd for Bennett on its own might be pretty fair value (if we didn't keep scratching him might even be a straight one-for-one), but it doesn't help Florida's cap situation next year which is why I was looking at other options. They could just live with the idea of knowing they're going to have to say goodbye to Montour in the offseason though. The emergence of Mikkola as a top 4 defenseman while making only 2.5M certainly helps buffer the potential loss of Montour.

[Miss Korea]

13 minutes ago, Diamonds said:

I guess we can agree to disagree then. Florida has a ton of great defensive players, losing one of them isn't going to suddenly make them bad defensively. The concept of using an area of strength to address an area of weakness doesn't seem like a crazy foreign concept to me.

 

Kuzmenko + a 3rd for Bennett on its own might be pretty fair value (if we didn't keep scratching him might even be a straight one-for-one), but it doesn't help Florida's cap situation next year which is why I was looking at other options. They could just live with the idea of knowing they're going to have to say goodbye to Montour in the offseason though. The emergence of Mikkola as a top 4 defenseman while making only 2.5M certainly helps buffer the potential loss of Montour.

 

This team is on an absolute heater right now.  They have won 7 games in a row.  They are steamrolling opponents left and right.  They just obliterated Colorado 8-4 yesterday.  Does that team really look like a team in need of upgrades?

 

What's worse is that your proposed upgrades for Florida are Myers, Kuzmenko, and Hoglander.  These are scraps.  Kuzmenko has been scratched all year.  Hoglander has been scratched this year.  So two guys that have underperformed (due to Tocchet not really liking them) and our favourite whipping boy (the chaos giraffe) for some of Florida's best playoff performers from last year.  Fans have discussed Myers and Kuzmenko being cap dumps all year, and you think we can just snatch away the key players of one of the hottest teams in the league.