Could Bedard be equal or better than McDavid or Crosby?

[Kevin Biestra]

3 minutes ago, GrammaInTheTub said:

Crosby is a Stevie Y/Sakic level legend to me. It’s no slag on Crosby - he’s the most complete player of his generation. It’s just that Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr are in another tier.
 

I understand the longstanding respect for Howe - but he doesn’t crack my top 5. Had Jagr not left for four years he’d be even higher up in points totals too - so it’s not all about points.

 

McDavid is likely to go down as a top five, but in that same echelon as Crosby, Yzerman, Sakic. I think the Ovi and Kane comparisons are apt. It will be pretty amazing to see what he can do once he has some actual support. 

 

Gordie had 6 Art Ross Trophies and 6 Hart Trophies...so he's not a case of a Dave Andreychuk style nickel and diming it to mammoth career numbers.  He was the best player in the league arguably for more seasons than anyone not named Wayne Gretzky.  Unlike someone like Mario, however, he did it mostly in the pre-Phil Esposito / Bobby Orr scoring eras where you would be the best player in the league with 80 to 100 points.  That hurts some really good players when it is all added up - guys like Rocket Richard and Jean Beliveau...and then other guys from even earlier who did amazing things like Joe Malone (44 goals in a 20 game season) don't even get considered seriously when who knows, he might be the best player who ever lived.

 

[GrammaInTheTub]

7 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Gordie had 6 Art Ross Trophies and 6 Hart Trophies...so he's not a case of a Dave Andreychuk style nickel and diming it to mammoth career numbers.  He was the best player in the league arguably for more seasons than anyone not named Wayne Gretzky.  Unlike someone like Mario, however, he did it mostly in the pre-Phil Esposito / Bobby Orr scoring eras where you would be the best player in the league with 80 to 100 points.  That hurts some really good players when it is all added up - guys like Rocket Richard and Jean Beliveau...and then other guys from even earlier who did amazing things like Joe Malone (44 goals in a 20 game season) don't even get considered seriously when who knows, he might be the best player who ever lived.

 

Great points and historical context is big. Maybe I should keep Mr. Hockey’s name out my gosh darn mouth haha!

[Blue]

1 hour ago, flat land fish said:

 

Bedard I'm less convinced will have  dynamic two way presence we could have more of an ovie or Patrick kane trajectory where could be a major winner but will need a great supporting cast.

 

Bedard had more PPG on worse teams than McDavid in major jr and international play. And he won the Calder on one of the worst teams in the cap era (the injured 2023 Blackhawks) So I have no idea where this "supporting cast" narrative is coming from. Bedard doesn't know what a supporting cast is. He's never played with one.

 

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/chicago-blackhawks/game-day/worst-team-ever-even-with-connor-bedard-blackhawks-very-close

Edited October 21 by Blue

[GrammaInTheTub]

6 minutes ago, Blue said:

 

Bedard had more PPG on worse teams than McDavid in major jr and international play. And he won the Calder on one of the worst teams in the cap era (the injured 2023 Blackhawks) So I have no idea where this "supporting cast" narrative is coming from. Bedard doesn't know what a supporting cast is. He's never played with one.

 

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/chicago-blackhawks/game-day/worst-team-ever-even-with-connor-bedard-blackhawks-very-close

Came from the question you posed with the first post of your thread, Blue! You’re right about his numbers and lack of supporting cast and records. No doubt he’s a phenom - it’s just pretty rarified air we’re discussing here so some skepticism with only one season under his belt isn’t unwarranted. No one’s saying he sucks - just that we’re talking about a GOAT list and it’s complicated.

[Blue]

1 hour ago, Nucker67 said:

Early to tell after only 74 games, but Bedard is only around a point-a-game player so far (68 pts in 74 games).

 

I don't think he's a Crosby comparable and certainly not McDavid.

 

More like a Pettersson comparable. (414 pts in 412 games)

There was no "too early to tell" for Crosby, Mcdavid or Lindros. You don't think Bedard is generational. That's fine. 

 

McDavid and Bedard got injured in their rookie years. So that's a wash. I could say McDavid didn't win the Calder so he's not really anything more than player X. Jayson Megna was a top pairing defensman in some of Bedards lineups.

[Curmudgeon]

3 hours ago, Blue said:

Crosby topped out in his 2nd year with 120 points. He makes it up with consistency and the cups I guess. And being a salt of the earth guy. I am just saying, some could argue that Crosby didn't end up with the peaks expected. 

 

And those who argue that would be dead wrong. IN 19 seasons Crosby has never had less than a point per game. (1602 points in 1279 games) He's won three Stanley Cups, two Hart Trophies, two Art Ross Trophies, two Rocket Richard Trophies, one Pearson (which later was renamed the Ted Lindsay, which he won twice more), one Mark Messier Leadership Award, TWO Conn Smythe trophies, one gold and one silver at the World Juniors, one gold at the IIHF World Championships, a Gold at the World Cup of Hockey, and two Olympic Gold Medals. I would put him in the top three perhaps behind Gretzky and Lemieux. McDavid has amazing skill, but he'll never be the leader or display the character of Crosby. He may end up with bigger numbers (If he plays 20 years like Sid) but he'll never have Sid's class.

Edited October 21 by Curmudgeon

[Baratheon]

Usually in these all time debates, people bring up regular season stats a lot.  Then as we watch the game later that evening, we talk about how playoffs is what really matters.  
This is what the all time playoff scoring looks like.

The only 4 guys ahead of Sid all played on the 80’s Oilers.  The guy has had a hell of a career.  Point production is only one facet of his game as well.

[Diamonds]

54 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Gordie had 6 Art Ross Trophies and 6 Hart Trophies...so he's not a case of a Dave Andreychuk style nickel and diming it to mammoth career numbers.  He was the best player in the league arguably for more seasons than anyone not named Wayne Gretzky.  Unlike someone like Mario, however, he did it mostly in the pre-Phil Esposito / Bobby Orr scoring eras where you would be the best player in the league with 80 to 100 points.  That hurts some really good players when it is all added up - guys like Rocket Richard and Jean Beliveau...and then other guys from even earlier who did amazing things like Joe Malone (44 goals in a 20 game season) don't even get considered seriously when who knows, he might be the best player who ever lived.

 

If we're going to go back that far, someone needs to bring up Eddie Shore. He seems to be completely forgotten about these days, but he's the only defenseman to win 4 Hart Trophies (one more than Orr).

 

For some reason people seem to remember to that Gordie Howe played into his 50s but forget that he was a truly dominant player in his prime. He also has 12 First All-Star Team nods and is the only player in league history to have a 100 point season after the age of 40.

 

Talking about the early days of hockey is fun. Some others that deserve mention are Newsy Lalonde, Howie Morenz, and our own pride and joy Cyclone Taylor.

[Kevin Biestra]

Just now, Diamonds said:

If we're going to go back that far, someone needs to bring up Eddie Shore. He seems to be completely forgotten about these days, but he's the only defenseman to win 4 Hart Trophies (one more than Orr).

 

For some reason people seem to remember to that Gordie Howe played into his 50s but forget that he was a truly dominant player in his prime. He also has 12 First All-Star Team nods and is the only player in league history to have a 100 point season after the age of 40.

 

Talking about the early days of hockey is fun. Some others that deserve mention are Newsy Lalonde, Howie Morenz, and our own pride and joy Cyclone Taylor.

 

Agreed...Doug Harvey, Pierre Pilote and numerous others like goalie George Hainsworth get lost in the shuffle.  A guy like John Ross Roach isn't in the HOF and probably won't be because those eras just don't really get attention or combed over anymore.  Even guys like Stan Mikita and probably Marcel Dionne soon are sort of drifting out of the general consciousness at this point.

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

McDavid is achieving scoring feats Sid never did but Sid achieved winning feats that most likely McDavid never will

 

Like a Stanley Cup. 

[MatchesMalone]

3 hours ago, Blue said:

I've noticed some skepticism creeping in about Bedard. I personally think it is completely unwarranted. He can equal Mcdavid in impact, just in a different way. Similar to Ovechkin and Crosby. He is generational, he was sold in the mainstream as generational. But there are some hockey fans who don't think he is generational. Some of this is just about McDavid hype. Somehow it is sacrilege to say Bedard could be as good as Mcdavid.

 

Where do you stand on Bedards ceiling  ?

 

 

 

He'll be different for sure. I think statistically he'll be chasing Ovechkin and Matthews more than Crosby or McDavid. Not sure yet Matthews is in that echelon with those guys, but there's no denying Ovechkin is.

 

Stylistically, obviously Bedard is night and day from Matthews or Ovechkin; as the physical statures would dictate. Crosby came into the league praised foremost for his generational hockey IQ, but also his skating and passing were elite. Year after year he added to his game: shootout expert, faceoff expert, defensive and PK specialist, elite goal-scorer, until he's arguably the best two-way forward to ever play the game - you could argue guys like Gainey, Datsyuk, Bergeron, and even go older-school and start talking Claude Provost or Frank Nighbor - are better defensively, but Crosby's combination of offensive skill with 200-foot IQ and work ethic are pretty unmatched.

 

McDavid is pure explosive speed and skill like the league the league hasn't seen since Pavel Bure or Bobby Orr, but with a small-space playmaking ability that would make Gretzky look twice.

 

But stylistically, I would compare Bedard with The Great One. Power forwards like Lemieux or Ovechkin, or speedsters like McDavid or Bure love to carry the puck and make plays with it. Crosby was about half and half - making plays with and without the puck. Gretzky and Bedard are maybe the best I've ever seen making plays and controlling offense off of the puck. They're reading the entire ice and planning out plays so many steps in advance that they can get the puck on their stick a couple times in a rush or a cycle but never hold it for more than a second and create a goal.

[Jess]

2 hours ago, Diamonds said:

Point 1. I disagree with in this case. Yes, in the history books Crosby has won two Conn Smythe trophies. However, I don't think he deserved either one of them so I don't think it should impact where he sits amongst the greats.

 

I was living in Pittsburgh both years and watched every playoff game. Kessel should have won in 2016 and Malkin should have won his second in 2017. Crosby was good in both playoffs, but not the best. Crosby won because his name is Crosby.

 

That said, Crosby is a generational player and not just his longevity and consistency but his ability to adapt his game over time is one of the main things that has set him apart. Wasn't he just voted "most complete player in the game" by the other players last year? He certainly wasn't great defensively when he came into the league but he evolved his game, particularly after his concussion/neck issues, to make the team better. The other thing impressive about Crosby has been his ability to elevate his linemates. Even though he has played his whole career with Malkin, they are very rarely used on the same line. There are a number of player like Kunitz, Sheary, and Rust that started to look like different players when they played with Crosby.

 

I can honestly grant you point one. It's not uncommon for the Conn Smythe winner to just be the biggest name, not the best player.

[Jess]

1 hour ago, GrammaInTheTub said:

Great points and historical context is big. Maybe I should keep Mr. Hockey’s name out my gosh darn mouth haha!

 

Historical context is what really helped me realize how good Howe was. If you go through each season one by one, it's insane how consistently and for long he was dominant. Context really does help better understand which players were truly great. Howe sits at #4 for me for that reason. Jagr is my current #5, but I'm ready for Crosby to beat him by the end of his career if he finishes strong. Crosby could plausibly beat Howe for #4, but he'd have to be very, very good for the last three years of his career (assuming he retires after this contract) or else play for a few more solid years after this next contract.

[Alflives]

4 hours ago, Blue said:

I've noticed some skepticism creeping in about Bedard. I personally think it is completely unwarranted. He can equal Mcdavid in impact, just in a different way. Similar to Ovechkin and Crosby. He is generational, he was sold in the mainstream as generational. But there are some hockey fans who don't think he is generational. Some of this is just about McDavid hype. Somehow it is sacrilege to say Bedard could be as good as Mcdavid.

 

Where do you stand on Bedards ceiling  ?

 

 

Bedard is as overhyped as Dahlin. He’s going to put up points and score fancy goals, but he will also be winning Green Jackets while leading his team to losing seasons. 

[-Buzzsaw-]

I am going to differ with a lot of the responses... but maybe not in the way you might think.

 

I don't believe McDavid is on the same level as Crosby or Gretzky... or Lemieux.

 

I think the difference is McDavid doesn't have the same level of leadership and ability to elevate his team.

 

Crosby is a much more complete player... offensively and defensively, and the fundamental element of his game is unselfishness.

 

Gretzky taught everyone on his team to be better... he elevated every single guy... yeah McDavid improves the guys on his line, but I don't see him elevating the whole team.  The problem I see... is that he lets himself get frustrated... starts venting and feeling sorry for himself, and that loses the team respect.  A Leader has to be able to suck it up, deal with the bad luck and bad events, and not let that affect his composure.  When a team sees their leader totally in control of themselves and totally focused it inspires.

 

In terms of physical talents, McDavid has it all, no question.  He is incredibly fast, has amazing hands, can score from anywhere, can pass like the best, but I just don't see the same level of leadership.

 

As far as Bedard is concerned...  I think he is top class... but probably not at the level of Gretz, Lemieux or Crosby.   I would put him on the same level as Kane... he is a Superstar, but not a Generational player.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, -Buzzsaw- said:

I am going to differ with a lot of the responses... but maybe not in the way you might think.

 

I don't believe McDavid is on the same level as Crosby or Gretzky... or Lemieux.

 

I think the difference is McDavid doesn't have the same level of leadership and ability to elevate his team.

 

Crosby is a much more complete player... offensively and defensively, and the fundamental element of his game is unselfishness.

 

Gretzky taught everyone on his team to be better... he elevated every single guy... yeah McDavid improves the guys on his line, but I don't see him elevating the whole team.  The problem I see... is that he lets himself get frustrated... starts venting and feeling sorry for himself, and that loses the team respect.  A Leader has to be able to suck it up, deal with the bad luck and bad events, and not let that affect his composure.  When a team sees their leader totally in control of themselves and totally focused it inspires.

 

In terms of physical talents, McDavid has it all, no question.  He is incredibly fast, has amazing hands, can score from anywhere, can pass like the best, but I just don't see the same level of leadership.

 

As far as Bedard is concerned...  I think he is top class... but probably not at the level of Gretz, Lemieux or Crosby.   I would put him on the same level as Kane... he is a Superstar, but not a Generational player.

Yup. Crosby is a for sure top 10 all time player. McDavid is on that 15-20 range. Bedard won’t make top 100. 

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, Baratheon said:

Usually in these all time debates, people bring up regular season stats a lot.  Then as we watch the game later that evening, we talk about how playoffs is what really matters.  
This is what the all time playoff scoring looks like.

The only 4 guys ahead of Sid all played on the 80’s Oilers.  The guy has had a hell of a career.  Point production is only one facet of his game as well.

A lot of the greatest ever played in eras when clubs played a lot fewer playoff games. 

[Blue]

2 minutes ago, -Buzzsaw- said:

I am going to differ with a lot of the responses... but maybe not in the way you might think.

 

I don't believe McDavid is on the same level as Crosby or Gretzky... or Lemieux.

 

I think the difference is McDavid doesn't have the same level of leadership and ability to elevate his team.

 

Crosby is a much more complete player... offensively and defensively, and the fundamental element of his game is unselfishness.

 

Gretzky taught everyone on his team to be better... he elevated every single guy... yeah McDavid improves the guys on his line, but I don't see him elevating the whole team.  The problem I see... is that he lets himself get frustrated... starts venting and feeling sorry for himself, and that loses the team respect.  A Leader has to be able to suck it up, deal with the bad luck and bad events, and not let that affect his composure.  When a team sees their leader totally in control of themselves and totally focused it inspires.

 

In terms of physical talents, McDavid has it all, no question.  He is incredibly fast, has amazing hands, can score from anywhere, can pass like the best, but I just don't see the same level of leadership.

 

As far as Bedard is concerned...  I think he is top class... but probably not at the level of Gretz, Lemieux or Crosby.   I would put him on the same level as Kane... he is a Superstar, but not a Generational player.

I agree that there's something missing with McDavid. Hes a rush player. He uses his teammates on the powerplay and he defers to them when he can't do it himself. He never enters the zone with using his teammates primarily on his mind. Crosby does. And Bedard does now. I've been watching his games. 

 

I think Bedard has the same potential as Crosby. With a higher ceiling shot. Bedard isn't Matthews. He's not just a shooter. 

 

Part of Crosby's hype was that he's a salt of the earth personality, 100% committed to the game. He isn't punching taxi drivers in the face on Saturday nights. Bedard also has this going for him. 

[Blue]

32 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Bedard is as overhyped as Dahlin. He’s going to put up points and score fancy goals, but he will also be winning Green Jackets while leading his team to losing seasons. 

Just curious what you're basing this on. I mean , he's already generational.

 

Vancouver’s Connor Bedard breaks Gretzky/Lindros record at 2023 World Juniorsa Text Message

Wayne Gretzky. Eric Lindros. Connor Bedard.

 

Those are the three Canadian players with the most points in a single World Junior Championship tournament at the age of 17. And, of those three, Bedard has the most points.

 

Not only that, but Bedard’s 18 points, one more than Gretzky and Lindros, have come in just four games. Gretzky had 17 points in six games in 1978, while Lindros had 17 points in seven games in 1991.

 

Bedard is now tied with Jaromir Jagr, who also had 18 points at the age of 17. Jagr needed seven games.

 

And .........

 

During their three seasons playing junior, both displayed jaw-dropping stats. Accumulated over three seasons in the WHL, Bedard averaged over two points per game. While playing in the OHL McDavid ended up slightly behind, averaging 1.72 points per game, throughout his three seasons.

 

(I don't get how anyone can say 1.72 is slightly less than over 2. It is actually a lot less) 

Edited October 22 by Blue

[The Arrogant Worms]

I am old enough to have watched Howe play.....met him once as a kid at Eatons and another when was signing his book.

 

He was a monster on the ice and layers feared going into a corner with him.  he is top five.

 

 

Watched Orr  If only he had the medical improvements of today 

 

in his prime.  No one could get the puck from him  He was that far ahead of everyone.

 

Met him at the Pacific Colosseum at a skate with Bobby Orr for charity.  Super nice guy and my pick for #1

[Baratheon]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

A lot of the greatest ever played in eras when clubs played a lot fewer playoff games. 

That’s true and it’s a great point.  Sid ranks 42 all time in playoffs games played and has played fewer games than anyone who has produced more than him.  Imo he still looks great even with context.  Still a good thing to keep in mind.

[Baratheon]

1 hour ago, Blue said:

Just curious what you're basing this on. 

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, Blue said:

Just curious what you're basing this on. I mean , he's already generational.

 

Vancouver’s Connor Bedard breaks Gretzky/Lindros record at 2023 World Juniorsa Text Message

Wayne Gretzky. Eric Lindros. Connor Bedard.

 

Those are the three Canadian players with the most points in a single World Junior Championship tournament at the age of 17. And, of those three, Bedard has the most points.

 

Not only that, but Bedard’s 18 points, one more than Gretzky and Lindros, have come in just four games. Gretzky had 17 points in six games in 1978, while Lindros had 17 points in seven games in 1991.

 

Bedard is now tied with Jaromir Jagr, who also had 18 points at the age of 17. Jagr needed seven games.

 

And .........

 

During their three seasons playing junior, both displayed jaw-dropping stats. Accumulated over three seasons in the WHL, Bedard averaged over two points per game. While playing in the OHL McDavid ended up slightly behind, averaging 1.72 points per game, throughout his three seasons.

 

(I don't get how anyone can say 1.72 is slightly less than over 2. It is actually a lot less) 

Dash 50 already. Bedard is chasing Dahlin for the Green Jacket king. Watch him play. Just like Dahlin he cheats the game in hopes of getting points. He will lead loser teams. 

[flat land fish]

3 hours ago, Blue said:

 

Bedard had more PPG on worse teams than McDavid in major jr and international play. And he won the Calder on one of the worst teams in the cap era (the injured 2023 Blackhawks) So I have no idea where this "supporting cast" narrative is coming from. Bedard doesn't know what a supporting cast is. He's never played with one.

 

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/chicago-blackhawks/game-day/worst-team-ever-even-with-connor-bedard-blackhawks-very-close

What i is was getting at as a smaller center/winger he's not going to be  a barkov/kopitar/Crosby type role.  His role would be o zone driver but will need the other two way guys surrounding him.  Guy projects to be top 20 player in league and probably perrenial top 10 scorer.  Scoring and winning are two different things.

[-Buzzsaw-]

5 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Gordie had 6 Art Ross Trophies and 6 Hart Trophies...so he's not a case of a Dave Andreychuk style nickel and diming it to mammoth career numbers.  He was the best player in the league arguably for more seasons than anyone not named Wayne Gretzky.  Unlike someone like Mario, however, he did it mostly in the pre-Phil Esposito / Bobby Orr scoring eras where you would be the best player in the league with 80 to 100 points.  That hurts some really good players when it is all added up - guys like Rocket Richard and Jean Beliveau...and then other guys from even earlier who did amazing things like Joe Malone (44 goals in a 20 game season) don't even get considered seriously when who knows, he might be the best player who ever lived.

 

I agree Gordie gets underrated because his point totals per season are less than the modern era.   But it was HARD to score goals back then, there was so much grabbing, holding, elbowing, interference, slashing... what players get called for as slashing now would not even be considered back then... would be thought of as love taps.  You really had to take a two handed hatchet to an opponent to get a slashing call.

 

People also look at Howe's size... 6 foot 205 lbs... as not particularly big for modern times... but in that era... he was a big guy.  People over 6 foot back then were relatively unheard of because big guys couldn't skate... there were not the clinics and instruction to get big clumsy guys comfortable on skates.

 

Compared to his peers, (always compare to the players of the era) Howe was dominant in so many ways.

 

Has any modern superstar being able to dominate the game in goalscoring, assists, and then also be able to physically run the other team out of the rink ?  Maybe Eric Lindros for a few years till he got his block knocked off... but Gordie did it at peak levels for 15 years and without a helmet or the kind of padding and equipment you see now !  And then after his peak went on to play another 17 years in the NHL/WHL/NHL...  completely unheard of. 

 

And remember, the WHL teams in the years Gordie played were relatively comparable or better, (Jets and Whalers) than NHL teams in skill level.

 

Look at Gordies totals for both NHL and WHL:

 

2,186 games played,  975 goals scored,  1,383 assists,  2,358 toal points,  2,084 Penalty minutes

 

If you count the WHL goal scoring, then Gordie is still on top... better than Gretz.

 

Picture of Gordie in his prime:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 22 by -Buzzsaw-