Climate Change Thread

[The Lock]

I just want to point out that I had no idea legislation that would force the oil and gas industry to lower their emissions was to actually happen when I mentioned my pervious reply to @UnkNuk The Liberals don't always do what I ask, but somehow they did... this time?....

[UnkNuk]

Not sure what to make of this idea.  But I'm always glad to see attention being paid to the idea of mitigating, and preparing for, the problems brought about by climate change.

 

Revenues from the carbon tax should be funding adaptation measures

 

We face two carbon-related problems. We need to reduce future carbon emissions in order to slow the potentially catastrophic warming of the planet, and we need to adapt to the climate change events already upon us – events that will almost certainly increase in frequency and severity in the years ahead. A carbon tax that pays for climate-change adaptation measures would reduce the need to squeeze social programs or increase debt, and continue to reduce future emissions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[UnkNuk]

So forest fires that are, at least, partially caused by climate change release greenhouse gases into the atmosphere which increases global warming which increases things like forest fires.   And the beat goes on.    

 

Wildfires could be triple Canada’s industrial emissions. But they’re excluded from the official carbon tally

 

As wildfires burned a record 18.5 million hectares across Canada this year, greenhouse gas emissions from those fires also soared to record heights, with preliminary estimates indicating they could be double or even triple the emissions from industrial activity.

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-wildfires-emissions-carbon-cop28/

 

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

I'm all for accepting new technologies if they can be shown to help with reducing environmental impact by displacing other technologies that have a much greater environmental impact, but it's shit like this that really has me leery of switching over to an EV.

 

Quote

Vancouver EV owner shares cautionary tale after car deemed ‘total loss’

 

Kyle Hsu was quoted $60,000 for a new battery after the battery pack on his Hyundai IONIQ 5 2022 got scratched. (Photo provided by Kyle Hsu)

   

By Pippa Norman and Charlie Carey

Posted December 11, 2023 9:57 am.

Last Updated December 11, 2023 10:05 am.

 

An electric vehicle owner in Metro Vancouver is questioning the sustainability of EVs, after his basically new car was written off due to the cost of repairs.

 

Kyle Hsu is hoping his story serves as a warning to prospective EV buyers. He says he was left frustrated and saddened by what seemed to be an innocuous incident that scratched the underside of his car’s battery.

 

He tells CityNews he was in Kelowna recently for a vacation when he felt his 2022 IONIQ 5 electric vehicle “was not functioning very well.” That, coupled with lower temperatures, left him concerned, and ultimately made him decide to have the car towed back to the dealership in Richmond through a service Hyundai offered, Hsu says.

 

He explains once the car arrived at the dealership, he asked staff to conduct a standard service to address a recent recall of one of the car’s parts.

 

However, he says when the mechanics began working on his EV, they found scratches on the battery pack — the protective case underneath the vehicle that houses the car’s battery — and a gap between the battery cell and protection pack.

 

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Kyle Hsu has been quoted $60,000 for a new battery after the battery pack on his Hyundai IONIQ 5 2022 got scratched. (Photo provided by Kyle Hsu)

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But Hsu doesn’t know how the car would’ve become scratched, saying the service department told him, “‘You must’ve run over something’ … They told me it was road hazards.”

 

Due to the damage, Hsu says his eight-year warranty was deemed void, and the entire battery needed to be replaced at a cost of $30,000.

 

Following the advice of the dealership, Hsu says he took his car to his insurance provider, ICBC, to see how much of the cost he could claim under his policy.

 

However, a few days later, Hsu says he received a call from ICBC quoting him $60,000 to replace his car’s battery — $10,000 more than the car cost.

 

Hsu says ICBC informed him that Hyundai quoted the insurance provider that the cost of replacing the battery would be about $50,000, plus labour costs and tax, bringing the total to $60,000 — double Hsu’s initial quote.

 

“I can only accept it, right? Because they told me that’s what Hyundai Canada quoted them. Their battery is so expensive, I was very shocked,” he said.

“If I’d ever known that … without a warranty, or after eight years when the warranty expired, I might need to spend at least $60,000 to replace a battery, I wouldn’t actually buy the car.”

Hsu adds the mechanics looking at his car from ICBC told him they were also shocked.

 

Due to the quoted price of the battery replacement, Hsu says ICBC told him his basically new vehicle was a “total loss” and he would have to say goodbye to it.

 

In an emailed statement to CityNews, ICBC explains when the Crown corporation assesses damage to a vehicle, “we look at the cost to repair the vehicle and its market value, or what the vehicle would have sold for just before the crash.”

 

ICBC says when a vehicle is considered a total loss, or a write-off, the corporation pays the actual cash value of the vehicle to the registered owner.

 

“In this situation, it would have cost more to repair the vehicle than its worth and it was deemed a total loss,” it said, adding that Hsu’s IONIQ 5 has been sold to a salvage buyer and is no longer in ICBC’s possession.

Owner doesn’t fault ICBC but questions sustainability of EVs

Now, Hsu says he’s concerned about the sustainability of owning an EV again in the future.

 

He doesn’t fault the insurer, with Hsu explaining from an insurance perspective, he understands the decision to write the vehicle off. But he says that sometimes, accidents, or unexplained incidents in this case, are “unavoidable.”

 

“You might lose your warranty in a bad situation. The battery cost is way more expensive than a new car. All my friends were laughing, [because] except for the battery, your car is trash — like, your battery is $60,000 … your car has no value.”

 

Hsu says he doesn’t understand how it can be sustainable to deem brand-new cars like his as salvage, due to what seems like a few scratches. In the future, he says he’d like to see more transparency by car dealers on the cost of repairing or replacing EV batteries.

“I just really want … potential buyers to be aware of the real replacement costs, not just how [dealers] advertise or how they post it online,” Hsu said.

Speaking to CityNews last week, Jennifer McCarthy with Hyundai Canada said the company is connecting with Hsu to assist him.

 

McCarthy shared that Hyundai had spoken to the dealership in question and offered to conduct an inspection “and provide information and support to Mr. Hsu.”

 

She added that a repair or replacement quote that large is rare, but each case is unique. In this case, McCarty said the Hyundai Canada team should have had the opportunity to assess the situation prior to the suggested replacement cost being shared with ICBC.

 

“In the past week, we have communicated to our entire dealer network that all battery replacement situations need to be reviewed by Hyundai Auto Canada. This will allow us to review each and every case and its unique situation. We will continue to communicate proactively with our dealers as we finalize new battery replacement quoting processes for customers,” she said.

 

https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2023/12/11/hyundai-ev-battery-icbc-cost/

 

It's like - ok, I get that the battery is a very important part of the motive force for the vehicle, and without it, the vehicle is little more than a rolling paperweight, but production of the other parts of the car impact the environment, and you'd expect that the key parts of the vehicle should be designed to withstand a moderate amount of wear and tear before being deemed no longer usable.  If a vehicle that bottoms out is suddenly no longer roadworthy by reason of the battery pack being compromised, maybe the manufacturer should re-think the design of the battery pack and the protective measures surrounding it.  And it's really bad that the rest of the vehicle gets scrapped just because it costs more to replace the battery pack than it does to buy it brand new.  That's a waste of resources and more useless junk that ends up in a landfill (even if the majority of the parts can be salvaged and re-used or refurbished and re-sold).

 

[UnkNuk]

Speaking of EVs, I was surprised to learn that manufacturing an EV actually produces more greenhouse gases than producing a gas car.

 

It takes a year or two of driving (and more if the electricity used is coal-generated) before the EV begins to show its environmental advantage.

 

E.V.s Start With a Bigger Carbon Footprint. But That Doesn’t Last.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/19/business/electric-vehicles-carbon-footprint-batteries.html

[Boudrias]

What dif? People can’t afford them. Do we line up to get free ones like the heat pumps?

[Alflives]

17 hours ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

I'm all for accepting new technologies if they can be shown to help with reducing environmental impact by displacing other technologies that have a much greater environmental impact, but it's shit like this that really has me leery of switching over to an EV.

 

 

https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2023/12/11/hyundai-ev-battery-icbc-cost/

 

It's like - ok, I get that the battery is a very important part of the motive force for the vehicle, and without it, the vehicle is little more than a rolling paperweight, but production of the other parts of the car impact the environment, and you'd expect that the key parts of the vehicle should be designed to withstand a moderate amount of wear and tear before being deemed no longer usable.  If a vehicle that bottoms out is suddenly no longer roadworthy by reason of the battery pack being compromised, maybe the manufacturer should re-think the design of the battery pack and the protective measures surrounding it.  And it's really bad that the rest of the vehicle gets scrapped just because it costs more to replace the battery pack than it does to buy it brand new.  That's a waste of resources and more useless junk that ends up in a landfill (even if the majority of the parts can be salvaged and re-used or refurbished and re-sold).

 

Do we (tax payers) pay for these EVs through subsidies to the manufacturers? We for sure pay for the purchase with the government offering subsidies. 
 

[Bob Long]

3 hours ago, Boudrias said:

What dif? People can’t afford them. Do we line up to get free ones like the heat pumps?

 

Depends which model you are talking about. PHEVs eg are very affordable. 

[4petesake]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

Do we (tax payers) pay for these EVs through subsidies to the manufacturers? We for sure pay for the purchase with the government offering subsidies. 
 

Canadian tax payers absolutely pay for EVs via subsidies. These subsidies pale in comparison to oil & gas subsidies though.

[RupertKBD]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

Do we (tax payers) pay for these EVs through subsidies to the manufacturers? We for sure pay for the purchase with the government offering subsidies.

 

It's not really a "gotcha"....taxpayers pay for all government subsidies in one way or another....

 

For example, if the feds subsidize a copper mine in Nunavut, we all pay, even though we might not see any direct benefit. At least with EV subsidies, (or subsidies for things like battery manufacturing plants) we all see a benefit.

[UnkNuk]

Four Takeaways From the COP28 Climate Summit

 

Here’s why the meeting was important, and what to watch for going forward.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/13/climate/cop28-climate-summit-takeaways.html?campaign_id=54&emc=edit_clim_20231214&instance_id=110164&nl=climate-forward&regi_id=56405277&segment_id=152614&te=1&user_id=dc88543b79693b0f05322365a827e237

[The Lock]

On 12/12/2023 at 4:17 AM, Alflives said:

Do we (tax payers) pay for these EVs through subsidies to the manufacturers? We for sure pay for the purchase with the government offering subsidies. 
 

 

Technically, anything the government spends money on, we are paying for that. I look at that as more of an argument towards why we should be paying attention to government policies.

 

I think the better question would be how much of our tax dollars are being put towards it compared with other things? What percentage of each tax dollar is towards this incentivizing?

 

Also, based on this, no one's going to agree with everything their tax dollars are going to. That's an unfortunate circumstance when you have 40million people all with different brains and ideas.

Edited December 15, 2023 by The Lock

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, The Lock said:

 

Technically, anything the government spends money on, we are paying for that. I look at that as more of an argument towards why we should be paying attention to government policies.

 

I think the better question would be how much of our tax dollars are being put towards it compared with other thing?. What percentage of each tax dollar is towards this incentivizing?

 

Also, based on this, no one's going to agree with everything their tax dollars are going to. That's an unfortunate circumstance when you have 40million people all with different brains and ideas.

I disagree. This offering government money to subsidize one business (Tesla for example) gives that company an unfair advantage in the market. That snd the EVs are craperolla and it’s a big scsmaroo. 

[The Lock]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I disagree. This offering government money to subsidize one business (Tesla for example) gives that company an unfair advantage in the market. That snd the EVs are craperolla and it’s a big scsmaroo. 

 

What exactly are you disagreeing with here with what I said?

 

Also, how is it one business when there are multiple companies with EVs now? Tesla's even arguably falling a bit at this point especially with their latest recall. They're soon to likely not even be a majority of the market. (majority meaning over 50% market share)

Edited December 15, 2023 by The Lock

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

47 minutes ago, The Lock said:

That's an unfortunate circumstance when you have 40million people all with different brains and ideas.

 

You give too much credit for those who only know to parrot politicians' talking points as gospel... 

[The Lock]

52 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

 

You give too much credit for those who only know to parrot politicians' talking points as gospel... 

 

As much as I hate to argue this, I'd really say it was their choice to follow those parrot politicians in the 1st place. That being said, I fully realise I'm opening a giant can of worms and should probably run for my life in saying that. lol

[UnkNuk]

2 hours ago, The Lock said:

I think the better question would be how much of our tax dollars are being put towards it compared with other things? What percentage of each tax dollar is towards this incentivizing?

 

 

Good questions.  And another one should be: how well is it incentivizing?  That is:

 

How many people are buying EVs?  How many would have bought an EV even if there was no incentivizing?  

 

To what degree is this incentivizing actually resulting in many more people buying EVs and to what degree is it simply giving some money to people who were going to buy the cars anyways?

[The Lock]

2 hours ago, UnkNuk said:

 

Good questions.  And another one should be: how well is it incentivizing?  That is:

 

How many people are buying EVs?  How many would have bought an EV even if there was no incentivizing?  

 

To what degree is this incentivizing actually resulting in many more people buying EVs and to what degree is it simply giving some money to people who were going to buy the cars anyways?

 

Good questions as well. Doing a quick research, it does show that the provinces with the most provincial incentives (BC and Quebec) do have the most EVs and the numbers were rather staggering in 2020. Supposedly, EVs counted for 5.9% of all vehicles in BC, whereas in Ontario it's 0.8%. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get more numbers as that article from the Globe and Mail appears to be behind a paywall.

 

That being said, that isn't nothing. In fact, it kind of does indicate people are buying EVs because of the incentives if we are to take those numbers at face value.

 

That being said, I'm tired and want to go to bed so I've refrained from further research. lol

Edited December 15, 2023 by The Lock

[Mac]

Some people that bought EVs 7 or more years ago are really regretting it now I think or they will shortly. They will need to buy new batteries for tens of thousands of dollars lol.

 

Imagine buying a normal vehicle and having to put a new engine in every 7 years.  

 

Plus the tech is rapidly improving including new battery tech. 

 

Once again the government's plan turns out to be pathetic.

[Heretic]

EV's are the worst thing to help with the environment.  

A single EV charge uses up to 10 times as much power as an average household uses in a day. 

Hydrogen is a much better solution.

[Bob Long]

5 minutes ago, Heretic said:

EV's are the worst thing to help with the environment.  

A single EV charge uses up to 10 times as much power as an average household uses in a day. 

Hydrogen is a much better solution.

 

Hydrogen fuel cells are a great option. Hydrogen combustion is a long way off and may not have consumer application unless they solve some serious range issues. 

 

Problem is we don't have any kind of hydrogen infrastructure.

[Spur1]

On 12/16/2023 at 3:46 PM, Mac said:

Some people that bought EVs 7 or more years ago are really regretting it now I think or they will shortly. They will need to buy new batteries for tens of thousands of dollars lol.

 

Imagine buying a normal vehicle and having to put a new engine in every 7 years.  

 

Plus the tech is rapidly improving including new battery tech. 

 

Once again the government's plan turns out to be pathetic.

A Chinese company has just tested a car that has a 1000km range and then instead of waiting for recharging the battery can be replaced in 3 minutes with a new battery. You buy the car without the battery and then pay a rental fee for the exchange. Makes way more sense. Just like most other battery operated devices you change the battery when it runs low. No need for home chargers. 

[Bob Long]

On 12/16/2023 at 2:46 PM, Mac said:

Some people that bought EVs 7 or more years ago are really regretting it now I think or they will shortly. They will need to buy new batteries for tens of thousands of dollars lol.

 

Imagine buying a normal vehicle and having to put a new engine in every 7 years.  

 

Plus the tech is rapidly improving including new battery tech. 

 

Once again the government's plan turns out to be pathetic.

 

 

So if you can replace a battery for 10k and get 5-8 more years out of your car, how is that bad? It's not like ice cars have zero maintenance.

[MattJVD]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

 

So if you can replace a battery for 10k and get 5-8 more years out of your car, how is that bad? It's not like ice cars have zero maintenance.

New EVs are selling with 10 year/160,000 km warranty on the battery too. (Edit: Hyundai/Kia were at least, when I was looking in the fall)

Edited December 27, 2023 by MattJVD

[Bob Long]

5 minutes ago, MattJVD said:

New EVs are selling with 10 year/160,000 km warranty on the battery too. (Edit: Hyundai/Kia were at least, when I was looking in the fall)

 

yep. Not sure where the latest EV rants are coming from? Batteries can be refurbished once the efficiency drops below 80%. We'll see more of that option once the current crop of cars age out on warranties. You can go online right now and buy refurbished batteries from the US if you want to.