Canuck Surfer

Absolutely dead on. Bastardization of religion for power is as old as war. Yet peace comes when you get the masses to separate their beliefs from any control freaks. Do we have to convince them religion is not real? Or just respect their space.

To quote you; ''As I have stated before;'' You still won't end any war telling people what their opinion should be. Give them room for their opinion. Make access to sites important rather than restrict them. That is treating other people, as you wish to be treated. One of your popular other phrases. And before you state that the Israelis and the Palestinians have a spiritual connection to Israel/Palestine, they don't. They have a religious/ historical connection. How is that treating people how they want to be treated? Yes condemn Israeli settlers for violence. Same for Hamas. For people who believe in religion; its spiritual. Regardless, important to them. So share it. Except when it is damaging, limiting to others. Then, perhaps, people don't have to be at war. I have religious family who get comfort from prayer. It takes courtesy to pay respect for people and their beliefs. I get comfort visiting my dad's grave, from visiting his old homestead. Is that spiritual, or historical? I believe it is both; like eating traditional food at a funeral. Or Christmas. Its all culture. We talkin bout practice together now!

Sorry; you cannot accomplish understanding of those you have conflict telling them what they should believe. That their culture is unimportant. It is very selfish suggesting all people have to do is 'listen to Black Elk.' The worlds' problems will go away? This actually sounds like why wars occur over religion.

I believe in a state for Palestinian people. It's also only a short term solution if only done because it is enforced. We cannot forget sacred sites; I personally believe access is a sign. A major indicator & form of concession that says Palestinian people want peace. Palestinians, of course want control of Al Aqsa. Its under heavy controls, often abuse but Palestinians have had more access given, even under Jewish control than offered in return. Than Jews who went nearly 500 years, yes under mostly Ottoman, nonetheless access to many of their sacred sites. Without sign that Palestinian, Syrian, Egyptian, Bedouin or other Arab groups including Palestinian would accede such access to Israel. Regardless of affiliation to religion I am a huge believer in culture. People want to have something to believe in! Its not buildings. Its what they mean; how groups look back to see what they have evolved from. Created in the past? Like you pay reverence to your parents farm, how they grew tree's. Created business, life. Would visit their gravesite, their beliefs & principles re flood your memory. Regardless of whether religion is mixed these thoughts are priceless. This is all culture! Jews are also a founding father culture in human history. Can offer meaning, lessons to everyone, as do many such cultures, faiths. All of these Arab groups, at times, but overwhelmingly do not believe in Jewish right to language, culture, belief, religion (including you on this last one, presume for yourself your view is correct & even if it may be? Its unlikely to negotiate favor or create peace) and yes sacred sites. Exactly what Israel says it is 'managing?' Managing is my description. Allowing access but controlling is called Apartheid, even Genocide handled by Jews 'in world opinion, by you.' Yet zero tolerance for Jewish access, even existence has been an Arab / Palestinian policy since day dot! This has to change, just like Jewish settlement abuse. Bombing of Gaza. Genocide and Apartheid, ethnic cleansing are rampant, pervasive in 'control groups,' another one of my descriptions, throughout Islamic militantism. World opinion... Perhaps its not anti-semitism? Maybe its simply disgust that Israel does this, perhaps because they have bigger & more bombs. Yet Hamas have an even stronger Apartheid policies, teaching ins reverse. It still won't change if corrupt militants won't find jobs for women, create education systems studying efficiency, productivity, industry, wealth to their people. Instead charge payola for goods smuggled through tunnels, to provide 'security?' Suggest to Jewish people if you can improve respect for us at Al Aqsa? We can find respect, acceptance for your culture & religion! What do you think that message would do to help offer peace? It is not just Jewish people that have to make concessions. If this 'problem' is to be turned towards a shared world!

If Palestinians, or surrounding communities / countries truly wanted a state for this tribe? - In 1948 Gaza was held by Egypt. - In 1948 West Bank was held by Jordan. WTF! Why is it no Arab allies supported a state for them? Held the territory themselves and did not usher in this 'ideal' scenario. As quote / unquote they support now? Bear in mind that both Egypt and Jordan booted most Palestinians out. Don't want them now. Nor did Jordan support a state for them in the 1967 war, after the PLO was established in '64... Both countries, and the PLO all postured to start another war, just as in 1948 and wipe out Israel. Then Jordan displaced 700,000 'Palestinians' associated with PLO interests and killed 30,000 in 1972. ____________________________________________________________________________ We both know in our hearts that if they would not get their asses booted? These Arab groups would still probably be trying to conquer all this territory, each for themselves. The other primary reason is the US supplies so much aid to places like Jordan in return for peace with Israel. Cough and the rights to army bases. Which provides an opportunity for the US to influence a balance of power, access oil. The Kingdom itself would probably not survive. Not that this is necessarily a good thing? Palestinian people themselves are a majority, not minority, to this day where the royal family represents a minority race. Jordanian popular opinion would also boot the royal family and go gung ho after all things Jewish. US influence is also similar in S Arabia. Although they have (had) way more leverage with oil. Again we could argue this is not a good thing? Careful for what you wish for! As America is now Oil independent, and the world of Geo Politics is swiftly moving to Green energy. Oil will be less a factor. Its very possible the US may no longer give a sh!t about various Arab tribes bangong each other for militant control. The main reason they already do not give a sh!t is so Middle Eastern, Russian, or Chinese interests do not cut off trade routes, or admittedly less compelling regional interests . Otherwise these groups would already be in full scale war. And the real reasons Jordanians, Egyptians Syrians, Turks and others only want a state for Palestine? Is if its at Israel's expense! Further who do not want Palestinians / Hamas watering down their own internal support base, tribal, or I call it feudal interest. Within their own borders. Its patently obvious when you view the positions these countries take, including not accepting refugee's along with the demographics I posted the other day.

For all the 1948 debate on who owns Israel Palestine? Specifically population based factors. Fully East of Jerusalem the case is not as recent. Jewish peoples held a majority in population counts in Jerusalem before, well before and after independence. Even as the Turks were leaving & British arriving. Not all sectors of the city; example East Jerusalem. Legally they may not be 'entitled' to area's in the West Bank. I see a lot of chatter on socials about area's like Judea & Samaria having sacred value & contributing to land claim beliefs. The name Samaria itself deeply involved in how Israel was named; in spite of differences between them & the specific Samaritan culture. Yet it is in the West Bank. I did post a video of Jews visiting grave sites in 1967, of ancestors not seen since pre Ottoman times. https://www.holylandsite.com/samaria Wiki; It includes most of the region of the ancient Kingdom of Israel, which was north of the Kingdom of Judah. The border between Samaria and Judea is set at the latitude of Ramallah. The name "Samaria" is derived from the ancient city of Samaria, capital of the northern Kingdom of Israel. When did Israel become Judea? Founded in 934 BCE, the kingdom ruled the lands from Jerusalem to Beersheba until its conquest in 586 BCE by the Neo-Babylonians. Although the kingdom was destroyed, the name survived with the Jewish people, and when an independent kingdom once again reemerged in 140 BCE, the land was referred to as Judea.16 July 2019

Lets just be honest. They are just nutjobs. They may dawn a cloak of sanctity or privilege. More often use religion as a tool of control. Not just nutjobs? Usually controlling, self serving narcissistic nutjobs. Yes including Bibi. Controls extending to violence and militant control of their societies. Not just mind control via religion in many regimes.

There is also no sense in a peace agreement for Israel If Hamas is not relinquishing power. Not my opinion; my read of what it would take to get Israel to hold back militarily. There is no sense in a peace agreement for Israel if Hamas keeps 2/3rds of hostages as ongoing collateral. There is sense in a peace deal, even relinquishing power for Hamas? Who have an opportunity to not die. Perhaps even set a term where they can exile. If I were Israel, I would agree to this if all hostages are coming home. In enclosed facilities, but not jails in a foreign country. To do the right thing by Palestinian people, not let more of them die. It is mostly Palestinians die; no matter how we look at it. Items Palestinians could offer; * open visiting, remember via an international security force, not IDF, to places like Judea, Samaria, East Jerusalem. * memorials & prayer rights by the West Wall. * arms free zone. * shared investment in rebuilding. * open books on councils, votes, public spending * minority rights and human rights monitoring * external universities to provide teaching, technical support ** In my own mind employment & education for women and minorities alone? Then the benefit extrapolated by bringing actual tax in to public, not militant controls & corrupt leaders to back programs. Could immediately add a component of efficiency not seen before. But enjoyed by much of the 1st world. Allow tech investment, medicine, pharmacy, use of water and farming to see results as Israel did when it harnessed the power of a whole workforce. Backed by education and a public purse.

Before your arrival; @Ilunga can verify. I called for Israel to be the leader not aggressor. Still should be! Renounce settlements and prosecute, not support settlement abuse. Israel also moved out of Gaza, set no conditions to do so. They also can be proactive. It is true they were bombed just after they did so as a reward. A smaller war ensued, and Hamas then, 1/2 way inbetween & now lost. While I understand anger? I do not understand this approach. It is physically stupid for a human to attack a lion, or a grizzly bear. Constantly poke the bear as Hamas has/. The PLO laid down their weapons. Yet Hamas immediately rushed in to take over all the illegal trade routes and associations that could control the streets. No peace was offered Israel. This is why there are security zones, albeit Jewish extremists, repeating myself, should not be using this as an excuse to steal further land. An international / Arab / IDF security zone would also protect residents from the IDF and extremists. Isreal has to agree to this. After 80 years its in their interests. Yet if Hamas laid down their weapons now. Is there another ISIS, Hezbollah, Assad who will rush in? There has been over the last 80 years. Many times. Its why Hamas also has to fully lay down their weapons and relinquish control. A joint peacekeeping international force to hold peace with IDF, also having an Arab component is absolutely mandatory. I UNDERSTAND people in Palestine, other Arab's will hate an IDF or external involvement. They have no choice either. Arab countries like Qatar, the Kingdoms, Egypt should volunteer soldiers to stand with UN & IDF to patrol Gaza & West Bank withdrawals. They also do not want the 'refugee's.' So agreeing to help police a weapon free Gaza also ensures dissidents don't spread to their countries, a long term concern. Qatar should exile Haniyeh, not offer him quarter and support. The bear is bigger than Hamas, has also destroyed much bigger forces. Forget philosophy, the bear will only hibernate if dogs are not buzzing his cave.

Certainly Palestinians have a right to be angry. What I am suggesting is that the route to peace is not served by empowering Hamas in their communities. The route to peace has to include foreign intervention, ideally / obviously not Israel. Foreign intervention because the nature of many regime's in the ME is they rule by militant violent control. The primary purpose of pointing to such widespread abuse is to note that ignoring it re-occurring with Hamas will not solve problems either.

I did not 'quote,' so no source is necessary. I used italics to point out I was paraphrasing. Just drawing conclusions on certain realities public seem ignorant to? Draw your own conclusions about these countries having no minorities. Dissidents can be given a death penalty in most Arab countries for challenging regimes. Even overseas. Ask, great movie btw, Jamal Khashoggi; https://youtu.be/2I6hjwblA_g Of course opposition leaders get dropped out of apartment buildings in Gaza. At least in Russia they fall out themselves according to the press. Its much harder in Middle Eastern streets and slums. Not hidden at all. Such intimidation is public on purpose to enforce control! People are flogged. Even stoned to death for not following religious laws. Or local leaders? Sinwar is jailed, funny enough by a 'foreign' country, for choking to death by his own hands anyone accused of 'colluding' with Jews. Among other things of course. Does answering as you do, imply these must be liberal countries? The court lawyer raises his hand; ''objection your honour!'' Canuck Surfer; ''question withdrawn.''

Ruling over Aleppo's Ruins Where is the outrage, calls for humanity in Aleppo? 350,000 civilians died. 500,000 total & 2 million injured. It lays almost as devasted as Gaza, but largely unattended or re-developed since bombarded in April 2016. Hamas & Assad are in the same sphere, have had disputes and allegiance shifts. Yet fought mostly on the same side, with the same suppliers, same agenda, backers, tactics. As did Hezbollah. All having the same goal. Profits by mob control of each new street. Street by street for regions. Millions, billions in some cases in illegal arm sales, grabbing of industries, control of trade routes, black markets, goods. The farther from legitimacy you can press democracy; plunder as untaxed profit for your militia group. Please do not believe Hamas returned these profits to dispossessed Syrians, even Palestinians. 6 MILLION people displaced! People are prioritizing 700,000 displaced 80 years ago. Hamas, the 'victims' here, were not called out just years ago when instigators? Much of Oct 7 paid for with payola from such activities. Offering even lower standards for minorities, catastrophically higher casualties. Its not that Israel should be doing what it is doing? Jews are not the region's main antagonist. Hamas either, but rely on it's ''lifestyle'' of activities. Terror, lawlessness. There are bigger problems to tackle in the Middle East.

Have you looked at the ethnic makeup / diversity of; Jordan? 94% Arab Syria? 70% Arab, balance Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Circassians, Mandeans and Turkomen. Virtually all Muslim. The largest are the Kurds at 2.5M of 21 Million. Gaza? 92 percent of West Bankers and 99 percent of Gazans are Sunni Muslim, the rest Christians. Egypt? 90% Muslim. Iraq? 98% Muslim, interesting as 20 years ago it had 2 Million Christians & several hundred thousand Jews. 55% Sunni / 40 Sunni among including 10% non Arab Kurd. Turkey? 80%; Ethnic Turks are a vast majority ethnic group at over 80 %. While heavily persecuted Kurds at 20% makeup almost all of the balance. Yemen? Has a rough 65% / 35 % Sunni / Shia mix with less than 1% of residents non Muslim. S. Arabia? 80% are Arab, Combinations of Syrian & Afro Arab settled thousands of years, all Sunni Muslim makeup 15%? Whites aprox 100,000. Foreign workers 5%. Israel? 74% Jewish, 18% Muslim, 2 % Christian & 1.6% Druce. Lebanon? 1/3 Sunni Arab, 1/3 Shii Arab, 1/3rd Christian. Seeing almost all ME countries, notably Iraq & Turkey, having disposed of virtually all minorities. Millions upon millions in the last thirty years. Many recently, and its similar in Africa & all the Stans. Where places like Syria, Yemen & Iraq having the biggest diversity of Muslim or Arab cultures, next being Lebanon? These specifically are in almost constant civil war fighting for internal controls. It's not surprising those not allowed undisputed domain in Israel call foul? That all these attacked Israel in 1948! They claim Palestinians are mistreated, which they are. That said? Were minorities treated better in Syria or Jordan! Those on death row, life sentences do not make the best harbingers, polling regarding social justice laws others. Hamas; 'I like to kill and dispose of everybody?' I don't think anyone else should be allowed! Turkey has been doing it slowly, but still radically like Hitler for hundreds of years. When does Apartheid become ethnic cleansing; after everyone else is gone in your Middle Eastern neighborhood of choice?

@Guntrix did your work in Jordan not include helping Yazidi, and other groups that faced both ethnic cleansing, sexual violence as one portion?

There is not much debate over this, Netanyahu is a war hawk. Empowers the abusive trends. https://youtu.be/7wgHuYbBcfk You tube vid on current civilian death rates. See below; the regimes (Syria, the various factions that contested its civil war) surrounding Israel have been killing civilians on an ongoing basis. Hamas truces have proposed 5 year weapons down, but not removal of their regimes. Nor have they included more than just over 30 hostages, not even a guarantee the hostages to be released are even still alive. Hostage taking and abusive military attacks have had civilian casualties that stagger Gaza. You know this, you were in Jordan? Are these regime's, in your opinion going to represent less civilian deaths in the next 10 years if left in power? I am off to Jordan next month. Skipped West Bank or Jerusalem. West Bank a dream visit of mine. What was your observation of civilian death rates in Syria while in Jordan. Or was your work before their civil war 8 & 10 years ago. Was ethnic positioning for power within each competing group not a factor? Did they not each, well more honestly militant groups from these ethnic groups, try and push all other groups out to gain power? Did they not posture to at least control individual area's as new territory. My thoughts is the tribal warfare has never stopped, with and without Israel. Won't stop, with or without Israel. My own solutions have always included a full embargo, not invasion of Gaza. It has also included the international community stepping in without Hamas retaining power. If Hamas had ever had a transition to a peaceful position it could be argued they should vie to be part of representation. That they still wish to retain civilian hostages, not release all, is indicative they want all leverage possible to continue as status quo. Israel needs to stop, for humanitarian reasons & also has its ghosts now widely being condemned. ie Israel is not innocent. A ceasefire would save lives now. Before, after Oct 7 & now. This has been my opinion. How do you disempower all such Jihad?

Surovokin flies economy class; noooope! Hard to read anything in to these moves rather than hope it makes a difference.. Shoigu has long been tagged as both corrupt & inept. I'd be happier if these guys started killing each other.

Lots of discussion about Intelligence conflicts related.

Rebuttal is not a solution. While Hamas is alive, Sinwar is in charge; the solution to the crisis is not more layers of blame on Israel. Its not that this should be dismissed. Israel has its accountability. The courts have a chance of restricting Israel. Also international pressure. Their democracy hopefully has the will to change who is in power; a negative impact. Israel is not the only problem. Bad as their behaviour is, there are controls. There is no control over lawless militant groups like Hamas. In which case this crisis will still go on another 80 years. Just as it has been in Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan, Syria. Whether Bibi is in power or not. You are still ducking the question. There are no solutions without what Palestinians bring to the table to offer peace. What do you got to offer?

This is what Russia produces for internal consumption in Russia. Imagine if that was acceptable script for a TV show in Saskatoon? https://youtu.be/1e5wnt0Ja8Y

Don't duck it; how could they stymie Hamas if Oct 7 was a legitimate threat?