Canuck Surfer

They also had a choice in 1948. Popular opinion says Israel ran 700,000 out of the country and displaced them taking over to create Israel Israel, however was formed by joint treaty resolution 181, by the UN & Britain; Britain who controlled British Palestine, including what is Jordan, large swaths of Syria, Iraq. Palestinians were part of these discussions. And these 700,000 Palestinians did get displaced. Large, PALESTINIAN, populations ended up in the Jordanian Kingdom as part of treaties & agreements. Jordan was formed in 1947. Palestinian in Jordan & Syrian administrations were awarded the largest properties. Those displaced were separated, or not represented in discussions depending on with whom u talk. Further, they were largely moved by Egyptian & Jordanian leaders. Who also had eyes on these territories. Not moved militarily by newly formed Israel. Even at that, Palestinians groups were also offered both in 1947 & 1948 tracks of more than 1/2 of what is now Israel. This was rejected, demanding Jewish leave altogether. Just as Hamas now, perhaps they are trying to relinquish while getting their asses kicked again, in 2006/7 and several times in-between. What really happened in 1948 is mathematically & semantically impossible to argue; Palestinians, allied with Jordan, the Saudi, Iraqi, Egypt and Syria attacked the newly formed state of Israel. All whom wanted their mitts on the holy land. Nobody blames Arabs for these displacements, but they were all complicit? Rather than negotiate, or form a co-habitat ant two state solution? These allies tried to wipe Israel off the planet & divide the spoils. This is history, well documented that Israel was surrounded & attacked. Israel calls it the war of independence. Palestine the Nakba; both are narrative of the same facts. Palestinians & their allies got their arses whooped. 80 years later its still a tragedy? It is, but you can only go back so far. My grandfather came from a family of ten brothers and sisters. Their family farm was lost in WWI; to our knowledge Gigi may have had a surviving sister whom he never met again. Can we go back to Ukraine & kick the Russians who displaced them out? Cough... 40,000,000 people were wandering around without a place to live surrounding WWII. Yet Palestinians should get back what they lost, in a pocket of war they started. I apologize for all tragedy, I also have time for accountability of crimes against but Palestinians also need to come to the table. Palestinians also serve up crime; see Oct 7. For 80 years they have taught their children they were robbed, rebuttal. Nothing said of how failed conquests, lack of compromise or reason is part of current circumstance. Accept some responsibility. Accept some form of Jewish state. Then ask for help?

Alf! Aside from a few cat slobbering feast memes? This is a post I am proud of on your behalf; perhaps your finest!

It is your business. Unfortunately you call out the crimes of one side only. You responded to a post displaying 'protests' that supported murdering & kidnapping of civilians Oct 7. Did not call those out. Its as if those activities we justified. https://twitter.com/i/status/1784357571941347813 Those who want 'peace' for Palestine should also want the release of Israeli civilian hostages.

I used to work at a place called the House of Stein. Useless information...

So? Economics is an important discussion with war appearing suddenly in so many parts of the World. Including a blooming issue in Venezuela. America & Canada are self sufficient in energy and largely mineral resources as a pair. Hydro and water quickly replacing oil in its various forms value wise. Water, globally less available than food & its key indicator of being able to create food. Europe and East Asia rely on Super Tankers & pipelines primarily from the Middle East and Russia. The Saudi's, Canada and Venezuela have the largest oil reserves world wide. Iran, on a short term basis, and Russia, benefit from increased oil pressure from conflict. A single US aircraft carrier on its own, is powerful enough to take on any air force in the world, save perhaps Russia and China, sitting in the Persian Gulf. I am not sure what the Houthis / Iran, are asking for? Almost everything worth money in their nations is supported by a world economy driven by oil. Global warming is calling on the world to further distance itself from this addiction. Europe doing it faster than anyone having had Putin throw it in their face vis a vie Ukraine. That carrier can create an economic bubble that suddenly restricts the Middle East & Russia from sourcing its water, food, and income by the channels currently in place. Yet settlers in the West Bank rampage, and terrorists launch missiles. It seems strange that its not easier to solve..

I think within any one constituency, left or right, there there tends to be a vote within party lines relating to views on support for Israel & oppression of Palestine. Example; can any RW be considered serious or traditional with Trump in the US? Who would have thunk Biden was closer to a war monger than the GOP, considering he served opposite both Bush administrations. My actual view is that regardless of ideology; regimes have to come closer to being in line with legal activity. Problematically we are less informed on how strategic allegiances line up in dark corners of the world like the Middle East. Someone is always supplying weapons to a marginal faction; hoping to profit if they gain power. Plus there are super Monopoly players including Iran, Wagner group, the Imperialist powers. I say problematic? Quote / Unquote 'Intelligence' has always superseded ethics, usually politics. In spite of popular opinion. What Mossad, or the CIA knows is more important than if a Hermaphrodite wants to don a Palestinian flag. Is paid off to run a Bot farm by an Orthodox FSB agent.

There is plenty of ignorance displayed. By commentary & protestors. Misinformation & mob mentality clearly contributing to stances taken. This is Fox news tho..., is it a campaign to grow these views? I stand by that people have a right to protest. Incitement and threats of violence are more protected under free speech in America. Yet still have a red line which it seems many will cross. Nothing is stopping police or media from taking name & numbers, recording what is said in a public domain. ''We are all Hamas, Pig?'' I do not see a problem more thoroughly investigating if this is true for her... Hopefully no Jan 6th level incitement, or worse which is certainly possible & has that look, will result.

One of the things I find fascinating is Hamas is hardly a lone wolf. There are these militant driven, corrupt civil wars & power struggles constantly in the Middle East. Each with a new warlord who steals control of territory from rival gangs and cultures. When the PLO fails, Hamas lines up. Larger countries, like Afghanistan, Syria, Sudan simply have more factions. Al qaeda & ISIS pop up. Who control for payola smaller regions within nations, exporting their services across swaths of Africa, Central Asia. Looking for profits selling arms, human trafficking, acting as mercenaries. It's a full on regional power struggle.

Also launched missiles from behind West Bank herders fences, caves & Gaza roof tops aimed at civilian area's. Since before they even took power 2005/06. Blown up tourist busses, and taken kidnap victims, yada, yada. Their predecessor PLO, hijacked airplanes in remote countries, terrorized Olympic villages. Israel retaliates, or intimidates depending on who you talk to, with killing reporters, shooting stone hurling teen agers. Rampages by extremists through Palestinian mosques and business sectors. Expels farmers, harasses businesses and buys the land, steals it on many occasions, for pennies on the dollar. Oct 7 was not just a point, it was an act designed to draw Israel in to war planned over more than a decade. Unfortunately too successful.

Honestly; don't be daft. Please find where I backed Israel trying to achieve peace by bombing Gaza? I called on Israel to show restraint, not bomb Gaza. Still do. I argued, Israel as the first world and by far most powerful nation, should take a leadership role. Prosecute its Settlers, and hand back land, delete the heavy handed activities it takes part in. Which could lead to an expectation Palestinians did the same. That if Palestinians could not because of Hamas; they could ask the UN or other faculties to intervene. Virtually every one of those countries has been held hostage by militant groups at civil war with each other. Many repeatedly, over & over. Death, displacement, human trafficking, ethnic cleansing is commonplace. The death toll by those hands staggers the death in Gaza. Check the track record of human rights for minorities in all thos e places. You suggested Jews left them as if for a beach holiday. Ignorant\ce to the realities of this conflict, as if Israel is the only aggressor, will not solve anything.

Jewish people in 100's of thousands, in some cases millions were chased out of various Muslim countries. So were other minorities as regime's centralize around there ethnic base. Christians; for example over 2 MILLION in Iraq have been expelled in the last 25 years. There are virtually none now. Minorities in many Islamic countries do not have the right to own land, vote, congregate, engage in their own religion, follow their own customs. Just as Palestinians, Jewish or Arab, did not have such rights under Ottoman rule 100 years ago. In Tunisia, for example, Jewish groups held very traditional non modern views and practices, ran businesses and trading posts. Most left in purges and Pogroms in the early 1960's as local populations revolted against French colonial rule. But all minorities were attacked. Then again as Islamic extremism exploded, as well as anti-semitic views after the 6 day war in 1967. Jews were killing Muslims, so revenge was exacted. Most ended up in Israel, just did not up and leave their home when Israel was first formed. Its a larger problem than that though. Take Iran a majority, or Afghanistan a minority. Ruling parties impose religious rule and militant control in various forms. Women in Afghanistan not allowed go to school, or work, who did not want to wear a Hijab fled to Pakistan. Now, as uninvited non legal immigrant's, more than a million Afghani's are being expelled. Then move in to disputed territories. This also happened during the Arab spring throughout the ME. Militant groups scattered to fill voids as dictators and nations like Iraq, Yemen & Egypt fell, and countless countries in Africa. These rebel groups almost exclusively ethnic based. They are blood thirsty & highly selective. Anyone outside their control group is dispatched. Ethnic cleansing by forcing boys to war, killing men, offering women as prizes to fighters is actually common. This did occur in all the area's I noted in my earlier post. Occurs in area's where Jewish people have never lived. Its not exclusive against Jews. Many Jews, however did have the wealth and a place to go. Too bad the same has not been the case, for example, for Yazidi women in Syria? Ask yourself why there are almost no minorities in Gaza? Yes many left. More should have. Guess what happens to men with Hamas if they don't want to fight as battles took place. Just as happened in Syria, Iraq, Sudan. Would you want to live here if you are not part of that Hamas control group... Many left. Some were pushed out windows. Much of the Islamic world is caught up in civil rights issues. Some in violent, corrupt, battles for ethnic centered feudal control. People have a mistaken sense that this does not result in Apartheid's for these various regions. No Israel should not contribute, or try to profit from this, which their extremists do. Israel, for this short moment might be the regions greatest problem. But there are countries with ten & twenty times the death toll. Where rulers dominate as Hamas does. The problem exists with and without Israel.

To me claims related to religion are opaque. As I am not religious. Claims about religion, heritage, family, ancestry & culture remain incredibly important. Valid; not for me to say? I went home to Saskatchewan twice in the last two years. I visited my Dad's, all four of my grandparents, 5 of my great grandparents & 2 of my great, great grandparents graves. Even great, great, great Nan! Saw pictures that my great, great granddad looked almost exactly like me; or I like him? Yet I live 1/2 a world & a century almost away. I have dozens of cousins that live within a 300KM radius. A perfect world, is a 'One State' solution. Who will accept everyone? The Jewish recapture of Hebron 1967 is in all regards illegal. Less immoral, by far IMO, than facts that there are virtually no Jews remaining in Iraq, Tunisia, Morocco or Iran. Palestinians have every right to be in 'Palestine.' Just not by themselves. Should they wish to lead? Or the Jewish??? It is about who will embrace and accept alternate cultures as brothers in arms on this planet.

Probably, implausible certainty exists that Australia simply did as they were told by England. If you believe England or America have been abusive as 'Imperial' powers. It should serve that the Ottoman Empire was as bloodthirsty, rule by hammer regime as ever existed as well? Take a look what they did to Christian Armenia as they were losing their grip around WWI. Erdogan cites a historical right, Putin'ish, to sovereign Armenian territory to this day.

This is closest to a report I have seen. A willingness to lay down arms, specifically 5 years, by Hamas is significant! Some, including myself, believe this may be an attempt to hold some grip on power. Regardless significant. First sign someone in Hamas cares about Palestinian lives.

Awesome reply Hippy. With all dignity and respect, wish for observance of this thought! It's simply more complicated in such a hub of initial humanity & culture. So many with legitimate claims...

Why did you post all these? Its too big a blast to make sense of. Do you believe their media source is Trump BOT farms?

How do you feel about the Hashemite Kingdom? Ruling over Jordan while 70% of its population is Palestinian. This portion of 'Palestine' is also where 80% of of its people landed between 1918 & 1948. Bashar al-Asaad, ruling over Syria as a totalitarian police state. Alawite being an aprox. 20% minority. The Taliban take over of Afghanistan. I am not sure what is happening in Iraq. The slaughter in Syria is ten times what has occurred in Gaza. In Gaza, Hamas at least 'represents' a majority. The same might be said of the Saudi Kingdom, Iran, Turkey. Where minorities are almost non existent. Or oppressed and face similar systemic removal. Armenian Christians are suddenly, again, squeezed by Azeri's & Turkey. Lets not talk about how well these countries offer dignity & courtesy to Yazidi & Kurdish people. Are these not examples of Genocide? Apartheid? Its convenient to hold the UN, US as complicit; yet Israeli neighbours, ruled by terrorists or autocrats, immunity from blame in this conflict. This is not one side only guilt! Israel's 'enemies' have to embrace a place for Israel and other cultures in the Middle East. All too many simply posture for their own piece of what shakes out.

Those who are citizens do hold all rights of citizenship. It does not mean there is not racism. Systemic, obvious, or cultural. Offering citizenship, is it not a bridge to peaceful coexistence? Honest question! One i would like to ask @Odd. also, if willing to answer... My own answer contribution to this discussion; I posted a video below three or five days ago? Let it simmer for a while, it did not get enough response IMO. Underscoring the profound impact of culture on this conflict! https://youtu.be/ggljfAfREjU Won't imbed. Probably, while not graphicat all, due to it covering perhaps the most divisive issue? Its about 1967, during the infamous 6 day war. the ''Liberation of Hebron'' by Israel is the 1.5 minute video's title. Only a minute, I encourage everyone to watch it! Quote / Unquote; * In 1967 the Jewish people took back their ancient capital. And reunited Jerusalem! * The Jewish people also needed Hebron, the tomb of the fathers and mothers! (Called the Cave of Patriarchs to Jews. Sanctuary of Abraham to Muslims.) * Rabbi Goran went right to the Tomb of Machpelah, planted a makeshift flag of Israel! Then entered the ancestral burial grounds of the Jewish people. For the first time in 700 years! This is the absolute beating heart of the entire debate is my suggestion! Hebron, Ramallah, Judae, Bethlehem, the Dead Sea. The area is full of linkage for virtually all cultural groups to have walked these mostly desert paths, for thousands of years. @Ilunga has argued, correctly, the West Bank is considered an illegal occupation. @RomanPer has argued, I agree also , a divisive point massive volumes do not agree with for sure, Israel has a right to occupied territories for security. No doubt, Roman has an attachment to the thought Jewish people have certain rights to their ancestral homes of culture & religion. Many people, certainly @Super19, probably @Odd., perhaps @Warhippy believe that Palestinian & Arabic populations in the West are prisoners, oppressed. I also agree, in spite of my security beliefs, that Israel is not only heavy handed. But abusive, and has truly Occupied, begun the actual settlement of these captured territories. Considering their attachment, many Jews probably feel entitled? Here is the thing? 'Palestinians' also claim this as their own. That Jews should leave, full stop. Yet divisive as it is, attached as they are, it is well discussed that Israel has at times offered, or at least negotiated regarding, the two state solution of Gaza / West Bank. This is profound! Absolutely profound. One extremist, or RW Jewish groups oppose. Imagine being barred from your ancestral burial grounds for 700 years! Yet negotiating its release in a peace deal? My belief is such a deal needs to suggest that these won't simply be Muslim territories? They must be Multicultural Territories. Israel is heavy handed, people are abused, which MUST stop, yet Palestinians visit Al Aqsa every day. Jewish people were barred from such a site for 700 years. That is also a poor view. How does Israel relinquish, but all cultures have access is my question & will access be embraced by Palestinians in a peace deal?

I am for peaceful protests on behalf of Palestinian people. They have a right to their voice. They should also call out, police, the activities of their extremists. Here in this video you have extremists radicalizing kids, taking part in Sharia law murder of homosexuals, non believers. This is not all peaceful protest? I remain convinced when Israel starts convicting its Settlers & Palestine those who blow up tourist buses? When both sides hold their own accountable against violent activity; peace has a chance. One teen had a better point; she was simply protesting war. I can accept that! Also call out any incorrect message. Here in Australia it's Anzac day. Australian and New Zealand defense (?) forces that fought at Anzac cove. Teachers and students are protesting that Anzac day is an affront to Palestinian freedom, and this war! This is incorrect. The Anzacs fought against the Turks; the Ottoman empire that ruled over 'Palestine,' most of the Middle East for nearly 500 years. Bastards who did not allow 'Palestinians,' of Jewish, Orthodox, Christian, Bedouin or alternate Muslim decent rights of land ownership, religion or congregation. Yes, a right to argue current policies of a current government.

''Hamas wants to join the Palestine Liberation Organization, headed by rival Fatah,'' in a two state solution! Will disarm & agree to a five year truce in new peace deal. I wonder if Fatah wants to govern alongside Hamas?