One of the biggest Contributing factors to the Canucks success (giving credit where it is Due to the one guy most of you would probably never expect from me)

[Tocchet.A.Hockey.God]

As the half way mark approaches on the season, we will start to see a lot of articles coming out usually grading the players on their performance, reflecting on team stats and I expect there will be a lot of praise going on.

 

But one thing I think that will be over shadowed is the Canucks attendance record. The players on this team have missed so few games with injuries it starts to baffle the mind of how many games where lost in years past due to injuries.

 

To date the Canucks longest injury is to Brisebois and you should notice I didn't say our most significant one. Brisebois would be our 7th defense men at best as a left handed defenseman to start the season and after acquiring Zadorov he might not even be on the team. (Left handed Hughes, Saucy Zadorov and Cole)

 

Our most significant injury to date has to be Soucy He has played 14 games of the 39 played so far.  The other 2 are Blueger and Suter only playing 25 games a piece.

 

It is interesting to note that of the 3 players noted above (Soucy, Blueger and Suter) all of them where acquired at free agency and had not played a single game for Tocchet last season.

 

The one thing that Tocchet addressed last season and was quite serious about was the players fitness coming into camp and how they prepared themselves in the offseason. I believe this might be the greatest contributing factor to the teams success. Right from the start of the season this team was in NHL shape and it showed. The health of this team has allowed Tocchet to scratch guys that he might not have been able to if there were more injuries. I'm not just talking about Kuz but also Joshua who is now dominating on the third line and Hoglander who already has 10 goals on the season. (I would also point out that I don't believe that Kuz being scratched stems from his fitness but the style of play from the KHL to the NHL)

 

Trust me when I say there is a lot of things that I could say and have already said about Tocchet. But it can not be denied that he had a clear message to his players last season and that message was responded to by the players. I also do believe that it helps that Tocchet has the full support of the upper management backing him.

 

Hopefully gone are the days when we have to hear the excuse at the end of the season "well we did have to overcome a lot of injuries" or see our team have to dress 12-15 defenseman over the coarse of 1 season.

 

 

Edited January 8 by CanuckFanForever

[Integra250]

Saucy

 

[kilgore]

14 minutes ago, CanuckFanForever said:

As the half way mark approaches on the season, we will start to see a lot of articles coming out usually grading the players on their performance, reflecting on team stats and I expect there will be a lot of praise going on.

 

But one thing I think that will be over shadowed is the Canucks attendance record. The players on this team have missed so few games with injuries it starts to baffle the mind of how many games where lost in years past due to injuries.

 

To date the Canucks longest injury is to Brisebois and you should notice I didn't say our most significant one. Brisebois would be our 7th defense men at best as a left handed defenseman to start the season and after acquiring Zadorov he might not even be on the team. (Left handed Hughes, Saucy Zadorov and Cole)

 

Our most significant injury to date has to be Soucy He has played 14 games of the 39 played so far.  The other 2 are Blueger and Suter only playing 25 games a piece.

 

It is interesting to note that of the 3 players noted above (Soucy, Blueger and Suter) all of them where acquired at free agency and had not played a single game for Tocchet last season.

 

The one thing that Tocchet addressed last season and was quite serious about was the players fitness coming into camp and how they prepared themselves in the offseason. I believe this might be the greatest contributing factor to the teams success. Right from the start of the season this team was in NHL shape and it showed. The health of this team has allowed Tocchet to scratch guys that he might not have been able to if there were more injuries. I'm not just talking about Kuz but also Joshua who is now dominating on the third line and Hoglander who already has 10 goals on the season. (I would also point out that I don't believe that Kuz being scratched stems from his fitness but the style of play from the KHL to the NHL)

 

Trust me when I say there is a lot of things that I could say and have already said about Tocchet. But it can not be denied that he had a clear message to his players last season and that message was responded to by the players. I also do believe that it helps that Tocchet has the full support of the upper management backing him.

 

Hopefully gone are the days when we have to hear the excuse at the end of the season "well we did have to overcome a lot of injuries" or see our team have to dress 12-15 defenseman over the coarse of 1 season.

 

 

 

So....hold back on the pink slip for now?

[Tocchet.A.Hockey.God]

1 minute ago, kilgore said:

 

So....hold back on the pink slip for now?

NO, but I'm not getting into that in this thread. All I will say is I still don't think he is the right coach for this team and at the same time still hold the believe that Tocchet could and probably will be a good/great coach down the road. He's just not the guy IMO for this team right now. If the Team was younger and EP40 and Hughes where still on their ELC's then damn right bring him on. 

 

 

[kilgore]

12 minutes ago, CanuckFanForever said:

NO, but I'm not getting into that in this thread. All I will say is I still don't think he is the right coach for this team and at the same time still hold the believe that Tocchet could and probably will be a good/great coach down the road. He's just not the guy IMO for this team right now. If the Team was younger and EP40 and Hughes where still on their ELC's then damn right bring him on. 

 

 

Why do I take the bait?

 

You don't think he's the right coach for this team.  But he was the right coach here already at the end of last season in demanding they get in good shape for this season. So he was good then for that instruction. And now this season they are in 4th place in the league. At what point did he drop the ball?

 

You also hold the belief that Tocchet one day could be a great coach.  Just not right at this moment.  Tough luck for us I guess.  So your prediction will be that if the Canucks fire him as you'd like,  he will then get another coaching job and THEN he'll be a great coach!  I'm jealous of that team. I sure hope its not a Pacific rival.

 

 

[Wilbur]

The fact that they're not a fire drill defending anymore makes a huge difference too, I think.

[Tocchet.A.Hockey.God]

59 minutes ago, kilgore said:

Why do I take the bait?

 

You don't think he's the right coach for this team.  But he was the right coach here already at the end of last season in demanding they get in good shape for this season. So he was good then for that instruction. And now this season they are in 4th place in the league. At what point did he drop the ball?

 

You also hold the belief that Tocchet one day could be a great coach.  Just not right at this moment.  Tough luck for us I guess.  So your prediction will be that if the Canucks fire him as you'd like,  he will then get another coaching job and THEN he'll be a great coach!  I'm jealous of that team. I sure hope its not a Pacific rival.

 

 

I think we could both agree that Alain Vigneault is a great coach.

 

Go take a deep dive into his past. It looks very similar to that of Tocchet up to the point of where Tocchet is now. However

 

Alain came to the Canucks when the core of the 2011 cup run wasn't even established. In the First year for Alain he made the playoffs his record was 49-26-7 and lost in semifinals. The next year they missed the playoffs. In O6-07 was Kesler's 3rd season and 2nd as a full time regular. 06-07 Burrows 2nd season. 06-07 the Sedin's became the top scores of the Canucks the year before Naslund. 06-07 was Bieksa's 2nd season. The 3rd and forth line depth of the 2011 wasn't yet traded or signed for yet. 

 

The timing of Alain's hiring was good because he was inexperienced when he was hired but the Core of the team had not been established it. This current season the core is established the depth has been traded for or signed as free agents the window is now 1-4 years. Joshua, Blueger, Lafferty all UFA's and not all of them are coming back. EP40 is going to sign the largest deal in franchise history (less cap space going forward). As the team makes the playoffs are draft position get worse who replaces Boeser or Kuz, Mikheyev if they don't work out or re-sign them. There is lots of talk about Lekkerimaki but to be NHL ready he still has 2-4 years. UFA signing mean paying a premium.

 

So yeah if Tocchet can coach playoff runs and get this team a lot of experience quickly then he is a miracle worker. But the truth is coach's of his experience level historical don't win cups it takes time which the Canucks don't have.  The Core is established it is here and now and we have heard the core players say that they want to win now and i think the fans do it.

 

Does it help the upper management has his back YES. Did he do a good thing last year by demanding good fitness, YES. Does that make him a great coach NO. Why because great coaches only prove they are great coaches when they achieve something that matters.

 

AV isn't great because he didn't win the Cup he is great because he Coach to separate teams to the Stanley Cup Final, Won back to back President's Trophies with the same team. Those are the Achievement they put banners in Arenas for.

 

So I throw the question back at you, What achievements as a Head Coach has Tocchet done that makes him a great coach. Or the right coach for this team a team that needs to gain the experience to be winners in the playoffs.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 8 by CanuckFanForever

[PureQuickness]

43 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

The fact that they're not a fire drill defending anymore makes a huge difference too, I think.

 

I'm not entirely convinced about this. We are not that good defensively. We are just pretty good at countering. The NJ Devils game really makes me believe that we still have a lot more work to do. I never got a feeling of stability in that game. The Devils, even though they were down three goals, were never out of it. It's why the three goal lead is the most dangerous lead in the game. It looks like there's a gap, but not really a safe lead.

[kilgore]

35 minutes ago, CanuckFanForever said:

I think we could both agree that Alain Vigneault is a great coach.

 

Go take a deep dive into his past. It looks very similar to that of Tocchet up to the point of where Tocchet is now. However

 

Alain came to the Canucks when the core of the 2011 cup run wasn't even established. In the First year for Alain he made the playoffs his record was 49-26-7 and lost in semifinals. The next year they missed the playoffs. In O6-07 was Kesler's 3rd season and 2nd as a full time regular. 06-07 Burrows 2nd season. 06-07 the Sedin's became the top scores of the Canucks the year before Naslund. 06-07 was Bieksa's 2nd season. The 3rd and forth line depth of the 2011 wasn't yet traded or signed for yet. 

 

The timing of Alain's hiring was good because he was inexperienced when he was hired but the Core of the team had not been established it. This current season the core is established the depth has been traded for or signed as free agents the window is now 1-4 years. Joshua, Blueger, Lafferty all UFA's and not all of them are coming back. EP40 is going to sign the largest deal in franchise history (less cap space going forward). As the team makes the playoffs are draft position get worse who replaces Boeser or Kuz, Mikheyev if they don't work out or re-sign them. There is lots of talk about Lekkerimaki but to be NHL ready he still has 2-4 years. UFA signing mean paying a premium.

 

So yeah if Tocchet can coach playoff runs and get this team a lot of experience quickly then he is a miracle worker. But the truth is coach's of his experience level historical don't win cups it takes time which the Canucks don't have.  The Core is established it is here and now and we have heard the core players say that they want to win now and i think the fans do it.

 

Does it help the upper management has his back YES. Did he do a good thing last year by demanding good fitness, YES. Does that make him a great coach NO. Why because great coaches only prove they are great coaches when they achieve something that matters.

 

AV isn't great because he didn't win the Cup he is great because he Coach to separate teams to the Stanley Cup Final, Won back to back President's Trophies with the same team. Those are the Achievement they put banners in Arenas for.

 

So I throw the question back at you, What achievements as a Head Coach has Tocchet done that makes him a great coach. Or the right coach for this team a team that needs to gain the experience to be winners in the playoffs.

 

 

 

 

 

Oy vey  (and I'm not even Jewish)

 

So only coaches that have won the Cup, or at least taken a team to the SCF, are good enough for the Canucks? Winning the Cup twice as a player, and once as an Assistant Coach doesn't cut it?  Okay

 

How many SCFs did Vigneault, who you say was an example of a great coach here, take a team to before he did it with the Canucks?

-Zero

In fact his coaching record before he took the gig here ain't that glamorous.  With Montreal.  

97/98  Lost in the conference semi finals

98/99  Missed the playoffs

99/00  Missed the playoffs

00/01  Fired

Overall record of .400

 

There's a first time for everything. I could make a list of all the coaches who won the Cup the first time, some the only time. Somehow they got the job even before their winning seasons started, many with never getting to the SCF before that.  Crazy huh.

 

For gawds sake, after The Torts disaster, the Moustache, Green, and pond hockey Boudreau, you want to harp about a head coach that has installed a system that works, and convinced the players to buy in, and taken us to #1 this season?

 

I can understand about nit picking faults even on a winning team. Some even hate that but we all just want the team to be even better. There are always improvements that can be made. But coaching just isn't one of them right now.

[Dizzle]

1 hour ago, CanuckFanForever said:

So I throw the question back at you, What achievements as a Head Coach has Tocchet done that makes him a great coach. Or the right coach for this team a team that needs to gain the experience to be winners in the playoffs.

 

 

 

 

 

Turning this dumpster fire into a team that is in legitimate contention for the President's trophy count for anything? Guy is likely a top 3 candidate for Jack Adams at this point... how about that?

[PistolPete13]

It seems like you’re doing community service here.

If the Canucks lose a few games in a row will we see the same old same old again?

 

[LillStrimma]

On 1/8/2024 at 7:38 PM, CanuckFanForever said:

As the half way mark approaches on the season, we will start to see a lot of articles coming out usually grading the players on their performance, reflecting on team stats and I expect there will be a lot of praise going on.

 

But one thing I think that will be over shadowed is the Canucks attendance record. The players on this team have missed so few games with injuries it starts to baffle the mind of how many games where lost in years past due to injuries.

 

To date the Canucks longest injury is to Brisebois and you should notice I didn't say our most significant one. Brisebois would be our 7th defense men at best as a left handed defenseman to start the season and after acquiring Zadorov he might not even be on the team. (Left handed Hughes, Saucy Zadorov and Cole)

 

Our most significant injury to date has to be Soucy He has played 14 games of the 39 played so far.  The other 2 are Blueger and Suter only playing 25 games a piece.

 

It is interesting to note that of the 3 players noted above (Soucy, Blueger and Suter) all of them where acquired at free agency and had not played a single game for Tocchet last season.

 

The one thing that Tocchet addressed last season and was quite serious about was the players fitness coming into camp and how they prepared themselves in the offseason. I believe this might be the greatest contributing factor to the teams success. Right from the start of the season this team was in NHL shape and it showed. The health of this team has allowed Tocchet to scratch guys that he might not have been able to if there were more injuries. I'm not just talking about Kuz but also Joshua who is now dominating on the third line and Hoglander who already has 10 goals on the season. (I would also point out that I don't believe that Kuz being scratched stems from his fitness but the style of play from the KHL to the NHL)

 

Trust me when I say there is a lot of things that I could say and have already said about Tocchet. But it can not be denied that he had a clear message to his players last season and that message was responded to by the players. I also do believe that it helps that Tocchet has the full support of the upper management backing him.

 

Hopefully gone are the days when we have to hear the excuse at the end of the season "well we did have to overcome a lot of injuries" or see our team have to dress 12-15 defenseman over the coarse of 1 season.

 

 

It’s much less negative stress now when the players are handled by a great organisation.

Wich means the mind let the bodies muscles work as they should.

[Tocchet.A.Hockey.God]

57 minutes ago, PistolPete13 said:

It seems like you’re doing community service here.

If the Canucks lose a few games in a row will we see the same old same old again?

 

Not at all, You can have different opinions on the same topic, The good doesn't outweigh the bad nor the bad out way the good. I can say the Coach did something good and still hold other opinions as to other aspect of his coaching.

 

For me the Ranger game exceeded all my expectations. It would have been so easy for the Canucks not to show up for that game and we have seen it against the other top teams in the league. Or they show up but they don't have the finish. But yesterdays game showed me that not only did the Canucks come to play and that also means that Tocchet had them ready to play. It also showed they had the ability to stem the tide when the Rangers refused to give up and made their final push and the Canucks still had gas in the tank to push back. That shows all us fans that Tocchet is getting through to them. We the fan aren't in the looker room so we evaluate the team by the responds the players give to the opposition on the ice.

 

 

[Kragar]

On 1/8/2024 at 12:24 PM, CanuckFanForever said:

The timing of Alain's hiring was good because he was inexperienced when he was hired but the Core of the team had not been established

 

How about Mike Sullivan for the Pens?  He was fairly inexperienced, and quite unaccomplished, as a coach when he took the Pens to two Cups in his first two seasons there.

 

Was that the wrong time to bring in an inexperienced coach with an established core?

[PhillipBlunt]

2 hours ago, CanuckFanForever said:

Not at all, You can have different opinions on the same topic, The good doesn't outweigh the bad nor the bad out way the good. I can say the Coach did something good and still hold other opinions as to other aspect of his coaching.

 

For me the Ranger game exceeded all my expectations. It would have been so easy for the Canucks not to show up for that game and we have seen it against the other top teams in the league. Or they show up but they don't have the finish. But yesterdays game showed me that not only did the Canucks come to play and that also means that Tocchet had them ready to play. It also showed they had the ability to stem the tide when the Rangers refused to give up and made their final push and the Canucks still had gas in the tank to push back. That shows all us fans that Tocchet is getting through to them. We the fan aren't in the looker room so we evaluate the team by the responds the players give to the opposition on the ice.

 

 

I think it also shows that Tocchet is capable of communicating very effectively with the team to have them work on habits that have hampered them before. Multiple players are having banner years filled with personal bests, but for me, the biggest difference is that the team is playing like a team that has an identity. 

 

It is noticeable. 

[Tocchet.A.Hockey.God]

1 hour ago, Kragar said:

 

How about Mike Sullivan for the Pens?  He was fairly inexperienced, and quite unaccomplished, as a coach when he took the Pens to two Cups in his first two seasons there.

 

Was that the wrong time to bring in an inexperienced coach with an established core?

There is an exception to every arguments, If you want to live in the world of exceptions have at it. I pass this question to you because Sullivan did it does that mean Tocchet is going to do it? All the exception argument gives people is hope. But for ever exception there is far more historical data that says the opposite and that's why it is called the exception. How many times have you heard the phrase "he is the next great one" and yet in all that time only McDavid has come close.   

 

IMO they should have fired him last year. Just like Torts said about the Canucks way back, that team has gone stale.

 

 

 

 

[cripplereh]

I can say this as I have been on many teams in sports and have been really bad to same team going undefeated across Vancouver.

 

First coach was like RT demanding and demanded fitness first.

 

Well second coach came in and within a couple years we were the top team as his approach was friendly but at the same time called us out on everything.

 

I say yes a hard coach teaches you but a more friendly guy once you know your role you want to win for.

[Kragar]

59 minutes ago, CanuckFanForever said:

There is an exception to every arguments, If you want to live in the world of exceptions have at it. I pass this question to you because Sullivan did it does that mean Tocchet is going to do it? All the exception argument gives people is hope. But for ever exception there is far more historical data that says the opposite and that's why it is called the exception. How many times have you heard the phrase "he is the next great one" and yet in all that time only McDavid has come close.   

 

IMO they should have fired him last year. Just like Torts said about the Canucks way back, that team has gone stale.

 

This team is stale?  You can't be serious. If so, good god you are so full of crap sometimes.

 

I have no idea whether Tocchet can lead us to Stanley's grail, but apparently he and Allvin have done a pretty damn good job at giving us hope it can happen in this window.

 

No one can guarantee anything when it comes to making a winner.  Your insistence on Tocchet's firing would be as crazy as suggesting that he can guarantee a Cup.

 

It took me a couple of minutes to find Sullivan. Want another exception?  Hartley's Avs had the core established before he took over, and that was his first NHL head coaching job. I'm sure if I was inclined I could find others for you too, but I'm sure it won't do any good.

 

There's no proof to suggest that a coach has to build and grow the core like you rail about with Tocchet.  It might be nice, but there is no tried and true legitimate way to build a Cup winning team. If there was, wouldn't everyone use that method?

Edited January 10 by Kragar

[Tocchet.A.Hockey.God]

19 minutes ago, Kragar said:

This team is stale?  You can't be serious. If so, good god you are so full of crap sometimes.

 

I have no idea whether Tocchet can lead us to Stanley's grail, but apparently he and Allvin have done a pretty damn good job at giving us hope it can happen in this window.

 

No one can guarantee anything when it comes to making a winner.  Your insistence on Tocchet's firing would be as crazy as suggesting that he can guarantee a Cup.

 

It took me a couple of minutes to find Sullivan. Want another exception?  Hartley's Avs had the core established before he took over, and that was his first NHL head coaching job. I'm sure if I was inclined I could find others for you too, but I'm sure it won't do any good.

 

There's no proof to suggest that a coach has to build and grow the core like you rail about with Tocchet.  It might be nice, but there is no tried and true legitimate way to build a Cup winning team. If there was, wouldn't everyone use that method?

That's not what I said Pitt is stale they should have fired Sullivan last season

[Tocchet.A.Hockey.God]

22 minutes ago, Kragar said:

This team is stale?  You can't be serious. If so, good god you are so full of crap sometimes.

 

I have no idea whether Tocchet can lead us to Stanley's grail, but apparently he and Allvin have done a pretty damn good job at giving us hope it can happen in this window.

 

No one can guarantee anything when it comes to making a winner.  Your insistence on Tocchet's firing would be as crazy as suggesting that he can guarantee a Cup.

 

It took me a couple of minutes to find Sullivan. Want another exception?  Hartley's Avs had the core established before he took over, and that was his first NHL head coaching job. I'm sure if I was inclined I could find others for you too, but I'm sure it won't do any good.

 

There's no proof to suggest that a coach has to build and grow the core like you rail about with Tocchet.  It might be nice, but there is no tried and true legitimate way to build a Cup winning team. If there was, wouldn't everyone use that method?

It took Hartley 3 seasons with Col before he won a cup 

[Enigma]

No, Soucy

[Kragar]

44 minutes ago, CanuckFanForever said:

That's not what I said Pitt is stale they should have fired Sullivan last season

Yeah, but they won two Cups with him. Think it was a bad idea hiring a coach with so little experience with a team with an established core?

 

Now, the Pems are stale. That often happens when you win a crap ton and your core gets old. Changing the coach isn't the first step, IMO.

[Kragar]

44 minutes ago, CanuckFanForever said:

It took Hartley 3 seasons with Col before he won a cup 

So?

[48MPHSlapshot]

Wrong thread lol

Edited January 10 by 48MPHSlapshot

[DSVII]

Don't jinx it man  the injury gods are fickle