The God Thread

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

This is definitely gonna end well. 
 

And it’s not me this time! 
 

Get out the popcorn! 

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Alflives

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

This is definitely gonna end well. 
 

And it’s not me this time! 
 

Why shouldn't end well ?

How hard is it to have a respectful discussion ?

I hope others don't come in here mocking and deriding those with faith. 

Personally I enjoy these discussions. 

The big questions, what of our beginnings, why are we here, is there a purpose, or are our lives meaningless. 

Scientists have estimated that there may be 8.7 million species of life in this planet.  

Why is it that humans have evolved to the point that we have the ability  to reason/ ratiocinate like no other species ?

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

As I stated at a congregational level sharing a belief system does have some societal advantages.

My parents congregation used to support a couple of very poor families in that congregation.

They also had fundraising activities to support charities both here in Aus and overseas.

When my father died, there was a group of women all of whom had lost their husbands/ partners, and they were a great support network for each other. 

Just like we hang out here, they got together with like-minded people and shared a community, by the time they died, they had been hanging out with many of these people for 50- 60 years. 

So I disagree with you that once you take faith out of the personal sphere it is a negative thing. 

Just like all human institutions it's when it gets hierarchical that the problems begin. Some humans want power over others.

This is not unique to religion.

It is the human condition.

but don't you think that we have many examples of how faith has been used to justify horrible things? I'm not saying its guaranteed or absolute, but faith - and who in a group gets to decide what that means - has been used to beat people into submission too many times.

Look at how many religious movements started with great intentions, and just turn into cults that hurt people. 

But how often does personal spirituality lead to organized harm?

[Ilunga]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

but don't you think that we have many examples of how faith has been used to justify horrible things? I'm not saying its guaranteed or absolute, but faith - and who in a group gets to decide what that means - has been used to beat people into submission too many times.

Look at how many religious movements started with great intentions, and just turn into cults that hurt people. 

But how often does personal spirituality lead to organized harm?

Totally. 

This is done mostly at an hierarchical level.

Sure you have a few cults like the branch davidians and those other nutjobs/ family, can't remember their name however most congregations in my experience and to my knowledge are made up of kind, caring people.

You can find good and bad and everything in between in any given group of people.

You can find good and bad in any person, it is a percentage thing, none of us are perfect.

I don't know about you however I am always striving to be a better person, I will be doing this until the day I die. 

 

As for the personal spirituality I totally agree with you.

What I used to define as my personal spirituality was going backcountry skiing with a friend, cutting a boot pack/ skinning to the top of a mountain, smoking a doobie, taking in the wonder of nature and contemplating the whichness of why.

 

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

Totally. 

This is done mostly at an hierarchical level.

Sure you have a few cults like the branch davidians and those other nutjobs/ family, can't remember their name however most congregations in my experience and to my knowledge are made up of kind, caring people.

You can find good and bad and everything in between in any given group of people.

You can find good and bad in any person, it is a percentage thing, none of us are perfect.

It's some of my personal bias creeping in here for sure. I've seen so much hypocrisy within my own extended family that claims to be "religious" I see it as a strong corrupting influence from an institutional pov. 

The ones that never made a big show of it and just lived a good life are the ones I respect. 

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

I don't know about you however I am always striving to be a better person, I will be doing this until the day I die. 

I hope I do. 

 

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

As for the personal spirituality I totally agree with you.

What I used to define as my personal spirituality was going backcountry skiing with a friend, cutting a boot pack/ skinning to the top of a mountain, smoking a doobie, taking in the wonder of nature and contemplating the whichness of why.

 

yep we are very similar in this way. For me its also skiing, but also even just in things like walking a seawall and being reminded that we're just here by the grace of so much natural power around us. 

 

[Jester13]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

As I have already stated we are certain about the periodic table of elements, the elements that make up the universe and ourselves.

How do you know that prayers have not been answered by any of the billions of people who have prayed over the last 2 millenia ? 

While I admit it defies what we believe to be reality that a being called Jesus did those things, what is reality ?

Is reality entirely dependent on subjective experience or completely independent of it ? 

 

As I have already stated ancient texts like the bible are not fairy tales, they are metaphors/ allegories meant to teach us how in interact with each other.

Belief in a god is the theory religious people hold in regards to how every thing began, not just this universe. 

Can you tell me what came before this universe ?

What created the  elements that caused the big bang, that some scientists are now theorising was a big bounce ? 

 

https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a34941841/big-bounce-universe-theory/

 

 

You hold your disbelief and that's your choice.

I believe in keeping an open mind, like any good scientist when something cannot be proven to be true or false with the evidence currently available. 

 

 

 

 

Reality, as far as we can measure, is based in the sciences, such as biology, physics, mathematics, etc. This is where logic and reason also live - we use these skills, and others, to think and test and learn and acquire knowledge to the best of our measures. Belief is not a tool that we use to do this. We would never create a particle collider and claim we believe that we saw a new particle and then never challenge that belief: we either do or do not measure something.

This reality is objective and never certain but rather probablistic. We test, and then we test again, and again, until after testing we calculate enough times that we reach a point in probability where it turns into knowledge. (We threw certainty out the window a long time ago because we realized we didn't need it anyway to acquire knowledge, such as knowing how to shoot a rocket with humans into space.) As such, this reality is always being updated: it is in its nature. 

I completely agree that there is much to learn about the universe. I fully accept the evolving objective reality mentioned above, but within this reality, it's clear that whatever we do learn about the universe is not going to be the God that ancient people came up with. What they call God does not exist other than in their own beliefs. Their prevailing reality is completely subjective and full of said metaphors and allegories that they came up with to explain what they didn't know in front of them. We can separate the good morals and values from their stories and move on while discarding their harmful dogma and metaphysics, though. That would be nice. But part of the harmful bits does include their explanation of the nature of reality. Their metaphysics is archaic and what all the dogma stems from, and it's time humanity discard it and keep the good stuff and move forward.

Alas, we now know that their version(s) of God(s) is highly improbable and based in a false belief of the nature of reality: this is now acquired knowledge, and so there is no reason to be agnostic on their God(s) existing. It would be irrational to do so; it would be rational, however, to be agnostic on the universe's beginning (if it ever had one) and its demise (if there will ever be one).

Therefore, human beings know that God does not exist, but what we don't yet know are plenty of other things about the universe waiting to be discovered.

 

[Ilunga]

16 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

Reality, as far as we can measure, is based in the sciences, such as biology, physics, mathematics, etc. This is where logic and reason also live - we use these skills, and others, to think and test and learn and acquire knowledge to the best of our measures. Belief is not a tool that we use to do this. We would never create a particle collider and claim we believe that we saw a new particle and then never challenge that belief: we either do or do not measure something.

This reality is objective and never certain but rather probablistic. We test, and then we test again, and again, until after testing we calculate enough times that we reach a point in probability where it turns into knowledge. (We threw certainty out the window a long time ago because we realized we didn't need it anyway to acquire knowledge, such as knowing how to shoot a rocket with humans into space.) As such, this reality is always being updated: it is in its nature. 

I completely agree that there is much to learn about the universe. I fully accept the evolving objective reality mentioned above, but within this reality, it's clear that whatever we do learn about the universe is not going to be the God that ancient people came up with. What they call God does not exist other than in their own beliefs. Their prevailing reality is completely subjective and full of said metaphors and allegories that they came up with to explain what they didn't know in front of them. We can separate the good morals and values from their stories and move on while discarding their harmful dogma and metaphysics, though. That would be nice. But part of the harmful bits does include their explanation of the nature of reality. Their metaphysics is archaic and what all the dogma stems from, and it's time humanity discard it and keep the good stuff and move forward.

Alas, we now know that their version(s) of God(s) is highly improbable and based in a false belief of the nature of reality: this is now acquired knowledge, and so there is no reason to be agnostic on their God(s) existing. It would be irrational to do so; it would be rational, however, to be agnostic on the universe's beginning (if it ever had one) and its demise (if there will ever be one).

Therefore, human beings know that God does not exist, but what we don't yet know are plenty of other things about the universe waiting to be discovered.

 

Psychists have been debating and experimenting for over a hundred years about which interpretation really represents what we define as reality.

 

There is the Copenhagen Interpretation.

The de Broglie Bohm theory.

The many worlds interpretation. 

Qbism 

So tell me what is reality ? 

In some ways we actually create the reality we see, the eyes collect data, that data is then used by the occipital Lobe of our brain, the neuronal activity is compared with a memory. 

We have just created our reality.

 

You have contradicted yourself .

At one point in your post you state that

" that their version (s) of a god highly improbable " 

 

 

You then go on to state 

" That therefore human beings know that God does not exist "

There is a big difference in something being highly improbable and knowing something for a fact.

 

Again you don't believe a god exists, that is the definition of an athiest, if indeed you call yourself an athiest.

Athiesim is a disbelief.

Here is the Meriam Webster definition of the word disbelief 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disbelief

 

I respect your right to hold your disbelief. 

 

As for the rest we know Jack $hit.

As Einstein noted 

" The more I learn, the more I realise I don't know "

[Jester13]

4 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

Psychists have been debating and experimenting for over a hundred years about which interpretation really represents what we define as reality.

 

There is the Copenhagen Interpretation.

The de Broglie Bohm theory.

The many worlds interpretation. 

Qbism 

So tell me what is reality ? 

In some ways we actually create the reality we see, the eyes collect data, that data is then used by the occipital Lobe of our brain, the neuronal activity is compared with a memory. 

We have just created our reality.

 

You have contradicted yourself .

At one point in your post you state that

" that their version (s) of a god highly improbable " 

 

 

You then go on to state 

" That therefore human beings know that God does not exist "

There is a big difference in something being highly improbable and knowing something for a fact.

 

Again you don't believe a god exists, that is the definition of an athiest, if indeed you call yourself an athiest.

Athiesim is a disbelief.

Here is the Meriam Webster definition of the word disbelief 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disbelief

 

I respect your right to hold your disbelief. 

 

As for the rest we know Jack $hit.

As Einstein noted 

" The more I learn, the more I realise I don't know "

You're missing the nuance of what you think is a contradiction, along with many others nuances in the argument.

[Ilunga]

45 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

You're missing the nuance of what you think is a contradiction, along with many others nuances in the argument.

 

I take your words at face value and interpret them according to their meanings.

Words have meanings. 

I would still like to hear what you believe reality is ? 

I don't approach our interaction as an argument, rather a discussion.

Hopefully we can learn from each other.

Someone with an open mind will always learn from interacting with others.

[Jester13]

7 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

I take your words at face value and interpret them according to their meanings.

Words have meanings. 

Exactly. The word God has a specific meaning to be a deity that humans have created in their limited understanding of the world. This God doesn't exist. Whatever we learn about the origins of the universe will not be God but rather something else (if we ever do learn enough to get there).

7 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I would still like to hear what you believe reality is ? 

It's not a matter of belief in reality but accepting what we know and updating what we know as new information is learned. Science and objective reality doesn't care if we believe in it or not.

7 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I don't approach our interaction as an argument, rather a discussion.

Same. 

7 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Hopefully we can learn from each other.

Someone with an open mind will always learn from interacting with others.

I feel the same. I sense a little passive aggression with you saying this, however. I hope I'm sensing incorrectly and you're merely stating it just to state it. I certainly don't go down philosophical discussions with a closed mind - I hope that comes through with my posts.

 

Edit: I'm back to my old profile photo of Camus so that I don't get unrecognized during these discussions

Edited September 19, 2023 by Jester13

[MattWN]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo

 

I can never figure out how to actually insert a youtube link. 

 

This pretty much sums up my opinion, or at least a part of it.

God, if he is real (he isn't) is a fucking lunatic. The last "thing, person, being" that we should be worshipping is one that causes so much unjust pain and suffering to innocent people/animals.  If at the end of it all, I end up at the gates to heaven, I'll spit in his face and live happily ever after. 

[Shift-4]

@MattWN

 

Copy address line. Paste.

 

[MeanSeanBean]

I believe in something. Creator, nature, the universe, god, satan, mother nature, space dust... I don't know what it is. 

 

Here's my question to those who believe in 'god'. Is your god the only God, or do you accept that almost every group of people have separately believed in some sort of Creator? That's the thing I can't wrap my head around. How is your book, your god, the right answer to the point where the majority of wars and atrocities against groups of people have been in the name of said god.

 I don't understand the nuances of religion, but how can god be correct if his disciples did their best to completely eliminate our Indigenous people, for example. That doesn't seem right, to me.

[RupertKBD]

6 minutes ago, MattWN said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo

 

I can never figure out how to actually insert a youtube link. 

 

This pretty much sums up my opinion, or at least a part of it.

God, if he is real (he isn't) is a fucking lunatic. The last "thing, person, being" that we should be worshipping is one that causes so much unjust pain and suffering to innocent people/animals.  If at the end of it all, I end up at the gates to heaven, I'll spit in his face and live happily ever after. 

I just paste the link directly into the post field. It always works for me....

[MattWN]

1 minute ago, RupertKBD said:

I just paste the link directly into the post field. It always works for me....

Touche. 

 

I always thought I had to use the insert link button, good to know! Thanks.

[Snoop Hogg]

[Ilunga]

18 hours ago, Jester13 said:

Exactly. The word God has a specific meaning to be a deity that humans have created in their limited understanding of the world. This God doesn't exist. Whatever we learn about the origins of the universe will not be God but rather something else (if we ever do learn enough to get there).

It's not a matter of belief in reality but accepting what we know and updating what we know as new information is learned. Science and objective reality doesn't care if we believe in it or not.

Same. 

I feel the same. I sense a little passive aggression with you saying this, however. I hope I'm sensing incorrectly and you're merely stating it just to state it. I certainly don't go down philosophical discussions with a closed mind - I hope that comes through with my posts.

 

Edit: I'm back to my old profile photo of Camus so that I don't get unrecognized during these discussions

I mostly use the words a being who created the elements that make up the Universe.

However let's stick to the word God.

If you call yourself an athiest, you disbelieve a God exists, you don't know.

That's the meaning of the word athiest.

To my knowledge there is no word that defines a person who knows a god does not exist. 

With the information we currently have, it is unknowable to prove a god exists or he doesn't. 

What defines reality is a far more important question in my opinion. 

This is one of many good articles about how our brains process information, relies on evolutionary traits like intuition and how we can misperceive things 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/finding-purpose/202008/how-do-we-know-what-is-real

 

Nothing passive aggressive about me.

I have never insulted/ abused anyone.

It's never personal.

As far as I am concerned this interacting on this forum is just like interacting with anyone, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

This means treat others with dignity and respect, especially when you don't agree with them.

[Ilunga]

12 hours ago, MattWN said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo

 

I can never figure out how to actually insert a youtube link. 

 

This pretty much sums up my opinion, or at least a part of it.

God, if he is real (he isn't) is a fucking lunatic. The last "thing, person, being" that we should be worshipping is one that causes so much unjust pain and suffering to innocent people/animals.  If at the end of it all, I end up at the gates to heaven, I'll spit in his face and live happily ever after. 

So if a god does exist he is responsible for all the bad stuff that has happened/ happens in the world ? 

Not any of the good stuff ? 

 

Ever heard of free will ? 

Taking responsibility for your actions ?

 

Ever heard that bad sh!t happens no matter how good you are  ? 

I am going through the worst time in my life and I don't blame a god that may or may not exist.

I don't even hold any real anger to the person who is causing that pain.

What's the point ?

Anger only hurts me.

 

[Ilunga]

12 hours ago, MeanSeanBean said:

I believe in something. Creator, nature, the universe, god, satan, mother nature, space dust... I don't know what it is. 

 

Here's my question to those who believe in 'god'. Is your god the only God, or do you accept that almost every group of people have separately believed in some sort of Creator? That's the thing I can't wrap my head around. How is your book, your god, the right answer to the point where the majority of wars and atrocities against groups of people have been in the name of said god.

 I don't understand the nuances of religion, but how can god be correct if his disciples did their best to completely eliminate our Indigenous people, for example. That doesn't seem right, to me.

Here you go, an athiest debunking your claim that religion/ " the book " causes so many wars.

He does it with facts. 

 

https://medium.com/metaphor-hacker/guns-glory-and-greed-most-wars-were-not-caused-by-religion-but-they-werent-prevented-by-it-a3002aee387f

 

I love facts.

[Ds4quality]

This is the only God... all you others are blasphemers

[Playoff Beered]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Here you go, an athiest debunking your claim that religion/ " the book " causes so many wars.

He does it with facts. 

 

https://medium.com/metaphor-hacker/guns-glory-and-greed-most-wars-were-not-caused-by-religion-but-they-werent-prevented-by-it-a3002aee387f

 

I love facts.

These are not facts, they are one writers interpretation of history on a blog. Many other opinions disagree with this argument.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

These are not facts, they are one writers interpretation of history on a blog. Many other opinions disagree with this argument.

He provided facts to back up his assertion.

I remember your post, Christians fighting Christians, make that a religious war. As Dominik pointed out it wasn't religious factors that were the reasons for most wars.

 

I get that you want to blame all the bad things that happen in the world on religion however that is simply not true.

What is actually to blame is human nature.

If we didn't have religion then wars would still happen, bad and good things would still happen.

" Bad " and " Good " are concomitants of each other. 

Human beings would still be human beings with all their faults and foibles.

[Playoff Beered]

16 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

He provided facts to back up his assertion.

I remember your post, Christians fighting Christians, make that a religious war. As Dominik pointed out it wasn't religious factors that were the reasons for most wars.

 

I get that you want to blame all the bad things that happen in the world on religion however that is simply not true.

What is actually to blame is human nature.

If we didn't have religion then wars would still happen, bad and good things would still happen.

" Bad " and " Good " are concomitants of each other. 

Human beings would still be human beings with all their faults and foibles.

I agree with much of this, however religion has caused allot of misery and unspeakably horrible things have been carried out in the name of religion. Wether religion caused wars or religion was used as a tool to propagate them is immaterial to my argument. I think maybe the confusion is you think I'm blaming everything on religion. Not so, I understand that wars are fought for many reasons, resources, pride, ego and even love.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Playoff Beered]

According to the Encyclopedia of Wars, out of all 1,763 known/recorded historical conflicts, 121, or 6.87%, had religion as their primary cause.^[6] Matthew White's The Great Big Book of Horrible Things gives religion as the primary cause of 11 of the world's 100 deadliest atrocities.^[7][8]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war#References

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

I agree with much of this, however religion has caused allot of misery and unspeakably horrible things have been carried out in the name of religion. Wether religion caused wars or religion was used as a tool to propagate them is immaterial to my argument. I think maybe the confusion is you think I'm blaming everything on religion. Not so, I understand that wars are fought for many reasons, resources, pride, ego and even love.

Wether we like it or not something inside the majority of human beings crave a " spiritual belief " that manifests itself as them being religious.

To some of them it is their faith, others being part of a community. 

Religion has/ is the cause of both good and bad.

It has had a negative impact on my life.  

At our best we are an incredible species, that includes some religious people.

At our worst, well you know, without being abusive we are pretty messed up, and that also includes some religious people.

What I believe we, as a species and individuals should do is look for what we have in common, not what we don't.

We will always find what we are looking for.