The God Thread

[bishopshodan]

9 hours ago, Jester13 said:

God does not exist. Full stop.

Yes. I do.  

[Master Mind]

22 hours ago, Foamys Ghost said:

Nobody has adequately countered the Epicurean Paradox.

Hadn't heard of it, but looked it up, and immediately spotted a flaw.

"Does God want to prevent evil?" --> "No" --> "Then God is not good/loving".

That's not the conclusion to draw from that question.

[Nucker67]

Good

Orderly

Direction

 

 

[Rook]

23 hours ago, Ilunga said:

How about we be kind to people.

To each other.

That's my religion.

Well said. Just accept people for who they are and what they believe in!  As long as it doesn’t cause direct harm to others, it shouldn’t be anyone’s business!

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Master Mind said:

Hadn't heard of it, but looked it up, and immediately spotted a flaw.

"Does God want to prevent evil?" --> "No" --> "Then God is not good/loving".

That's not the conclusion to draw from that question.

actually its not "good", its "all good". So that is a logical conclusion to draw. 

[Bob Long]

Faith itself is an illogical act. It's why there's no real conflict between science and religion, there can't be one. 

[Ilunga]

11 hours ago, Jester13 said:

You're 99% certain, yet agnostic? That doesn't seem very rational or logical to me. 

God is a specific definition of a Supreme Being and creator/ruler of the universe who interferes with our lives here on earth. If you're 99% certain that this God isn't real and instead are keeping your mind open to "something" that may have started the universe (e.g. the universe is a living being itself), that's different and doesn't require you to call yourself agnostic. 

God does not exist. Full stop.

There are very few things out species is 100 percent certain of, most of those things are elements on the periodic table of elements.

We believe we know something, new evidence comes to light and what we believed was factual was not.

For example we believed that multi celled life began  after an event called snow ball earth, somewhere between 650 - 800 million years ago.

Now some are arguing that fossil evidence that dates back to between 2 - 2.5 billion is the first form of multi celled life.

I could give you many examples of what we thought we knew, was in fact incorrect.

We think we know a lot however in reality we know Jack $hit in the context that there is virtually infinite knowledge by human standards. 

This is why I am very careful not to state I am a 100 percent certain of something. 

 

The meaning of the word agnostic

" A person who doesn't believe it is possible to know for sure that a god exists "

That is how I define myself.

[Ilunga]

52 minutes ago, Rook said:

Well said. Just accept people for who they are and what they believe in!  As long as it doesn’t cause direct harm to others, it shouldn’t be anyone’s business!

This is my " mantra" .

I will fight for another's right to do whatever the EFF they want if it does not have a negative impact on others.

Therein lies the rub, we all have different definitions of what defines a negative impact.

[Ilunga]

19 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

Faith itself is an illogical act. It's why there's no real conflict between science and religion, there can't be one. 

My mother and father were the most intelligent people I have ever known and they had faith. Their faith was a great comfort to them as was their congregation.

At a congregational level I can see some advantages of sharing a belief system with others. 

I had many discussions about this subject with them.

Even though I am not religious my mum told me I am one of the most spiritual people she had known.

 

I wish everyone shared my belief system.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Ilunga

[Bobby Lou]

[Master Mind]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

actually its not "good", its "all good". So that is a logical conclusion to draw. 

I suppose people are cutting words out on some sites.

Regardless, it sounds like the conclusion someone with teenage angst would come to.

There's more nuance to it.

[Foamys Ghost]

3 hours ago, Master Mind said:

Hadn't heard of it, but looked it up, and immediately spotted a flaw.

"Does God want to prevent evil?" --> "No" --> "Then God is not good/loving".

That's not the conclusion to draw from that question.

Really?  Do explain.  The mothers of children with bone marrow cancer would like to know.  Also the millions who have died from natural disasters and starvation from droughts would like to know why their demise is righteous.

[Master Mind]

22 minutes ago, Foamys Ghost said:

Really?  Do explain.  The mothers of children with bone marrow cancer would like to know.  Also the millions who have died from natural disasters and starvation from droughts would like to know why their demise is righteous.

Bad things happening =/= God not good/loving.

[Doogie]

God is the most compassionate, the most merciful; the creator of the heavens and the earth. He is one God, He begets not, nor is He begotten. He is unique. He is omnipotent. He is beyond the limitations of man. He is beyond the constructs of our imagination, but He is ever accessible through sincere supplication. When you call upon Him alone, one God, He is closer to you than you jugular vein. He is known by many names and attributes but His essence is one. He’s one God. No human likeness, no human imperfection can be attributed to Him. No partners, no image of Him can be constructed. And that is God. 

[4petesake]

4 hours ago, Bobby Lou said:

“If you’re dropping by again do pop in, and thanks a lot for the gold and frankincense but don’t worry too much about the myrrh next time.”

- Life of Brian

[Bob Long]

10 hours ago, Master Mind said:

I suppose people are cutting words out on some sites.

Regardless, it sounds like the conclusion someone with teenage angst would come to.

There's more nuance to it.

some people tend to look for absolutes with religion - "all good" "all powerful" etc so for that kind of person its hard to resolve big issues like why is there suffering without giving god a pass. Blind faith, as they say. 

[Bob Long]

12 hours ago, Ilunga said:

My mother and father were the most intelligent people I have ever known and they had faith. Their faith was a great comfort to them as was their congregation.

At a congregational level I can see some advantages of sharing a belief system with others. 

I had many discussions about this subject with them.

Even though I am not religious my mum told me I am one of the most spiritual people she had known.

 

I wish everyone shared my belief system.

sounds like my grandparents, awesome people who also relied on an idea of faith. I'm not criticizing the use of it personally, I think whatever you do for your own personal journey that way is your business.

But unfortunately it gets applied at the institutional level too. Something like residential schools happen because no one wants to question the authority god "gives" the church. Even now you have deniers sitting in the Canadian senate who just can't handle the idea that the church is corrupt. 

Some people try to use "faith" like a burning sword. I mean look at the state of US politics and evangelicals, isn't that exactly the kind of thing Jesus warned everyone about? 

IMO as soon as faith moves outside your personal sphere it gets corrupted very easily. 

[Coconuts]

[Jester13]

13 hours ago, Ilunga said:

There are very few things out species is 100 percent certain of, most of those things are elements on the periodic table of elements.

We believe we know something, new evidence comes to light and what we believed was factual was not.

For example we believed that multi celled life began  after an event called snow ball earth, somewhere between 650 - 800 million years ago.

Now some are arguing that fossil evidence that dates back to between 2 - 2.5 billion is the first form of multi celled life.

I could give you many examples of what we thought we knew, was in fact incorrect.

We think we know a lot however in reality we know Jack $hit in the context that there is virtually infinite knowledge by human standards. 

This is why I am very careful not to state I am a 100 percent certain of something. 

 

The meaning of the word agnostic

" A person who doesn't believe it is possible to know for sure that a god exists "

That is how I define myself.

I would argue we can't ever have 100% certainty for anything, but that we don't need 100% certainty anyways to know something. 

Does prayer work? Did Jesus walk on water or turn water into wine? These would defy physics, yet we wouldn't say we don't know that these didn't happen, would we? 

The God that ancient texts believe in are fairy tales. Every piece of evidence points to that. So why would we refrain from saying, "Well, ya never know." ? 

God as humans portray it does not exist. It is irrational to be agnostic about God existing.

Is there more to discover in how the universe came to be, or what the universe is? Of course.

It is rational to be agnostic about knowledge of the universe, but this is a different conversation altogether.

Until a white robed dude or a multi-armed elephant shows themselves and says, "Surprise, mofos! I am real!", we can confidently claim we know there's no such thing.

[Master Mind]

2 hours ago, Bob Long said:

some people tend to look for absolutes with religion - "all good" "all powerful" etc so for that kind of person its hard to resolve big issues like why is there suffering without giving god a pass. Blind faith, as they say. 

I understand people's desire for absolutes, but for some topics, especially of this nature, I find that mindset doesn't lead to interesting conversation.

[Ilunga]

9 hours ago, Bob Long said:

sounds like my grandparents, awesome people who also relied on an idea of faith. I'm not criticizing the use of it personally, I think whatever you do for your own personal journey that way is your business.

But unfortunately it gets applied at the institutional level too. Something like residential schools happen because no one wants to question the authority god "gives" the church. Even now you have deniers sitting in the Canadian senate who just can't handle the idea that the church is corrupt. 

Some people try to use "faith" like a burning sword. I mean look at the state of US politics and evangelicals, isn't that exactly the kind of thing Jesus warned everyone about? 

IMO as soon as faith moves outside your personal sphere it gets corrupted very easily. 

As I stated at a congregational level sharing a belief system does have some societal advantages.

My parents congregation used to support a couple of very poor families in that congregation.

They also had fundraising activities to support charities both here in Aus and overseas.

When my father died, there was a group of women all of whom had lost their husbands/ partners, and they were a great support network for each other. 

Just like we hang out here, they got together with like-minded people and shared a community, by the time they died, they had been hanging out with many of these people for 50- 60 years. 

So I disagree with you that once you take faith out of the personal sphere it is a negative thing. 

Just like all human institutions it's when it gets hierarchical that the problems begin. Some humans want power over others.

This is not unique to religion.

It is the human condition.

[Elias Pettersson]

God is great. Thanks be to God….

[Elias Pettersson]

19 hours ago, Foamys Ghost said:

Really?  Do explain.  The mothers of children with bone marrow cancer would like to know.  Also the millions who have died from natural disasters and starvation from droughts would like to know why their demise is righteous.

This is a question that gets asked all the time. Why do bad things happen to good people?

If you have been religious all of your life then you would know the answer.  It’s pretty simple really. 

[Sharpshooter]

This is definitely gonna end well. 
 

And it’s not me this time! 
 

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, Jester13 said:

I would argue we can't ever have 100% certainty for anything, but that we don't need 100% certainty anyways to know something. 

Does prayer work? Did Jesus walk on water or turn water into wine? These would defy physics, yet we wouldn't say we don't know that these didn't happen, would we? 

The God that ancient texts believe in are fairy tales. Every piece of evidence points to that. So why would we refrain from saying, "Well, ya never know." ? 

God as humans portray it does not exist. It is irrational to be agnostic about God existing.

Is there more to discover in how the universe came to be, or what the universe is? Of course.

It is rational to be agnostic about knowledge of the universe, but this is a different conversation altogether.

Until a white robed dude or a multi-armed elephant shows themselves and says, "Surprise, mofos! I am real!", we can confidently claim we know there's no such thing.

As I have already stated we are certain about the periodic table of elements, the elements that make up the universe and ourselves.

How do you know that prayers have not been answered by any of the billions of people who have prayed over the last 2 millenia ? 

While I admit it defies what we believe to be reality that a being called Jesus did those things, what is reality ?

Is reality entirely dependent on subjective experience or completely independent of it ? 

 

As I have already stated ancient texts like the bible are not fairy tales, they are metaphors/ allegories meant to teach us how in interact with each other.

Belief in a god is the theory religious people hold in regards to how every thing began, not just this universe. 

Can you tell me what came before this universe ?

What created the  elements that caused the big bang, that some scientists are now theorising was a big bounce ? 

 

https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a34941841/big-bounce-universe-theory/

 

 

You hold your disbelief and that's your choice.

I believe in keeping an open mind, like any good scientist when something cannot be proven to be true or false with the evidence currently available.