Canadian Politics Thread

[ronthecivil]

50 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

The NDP/Libs won due to the cities and the Bloc holding the balance in Quebec.  While I expect the Bloc to lose some ground in Quebec I also expect the NDP to poll a bit stronger which will cause the Libs seats.  Unlike last time though sentiment is now anger and angry people vote against common sense.  I actually anticipate that the Cons will get a majority unless trudeau can stretch the election out until the VERY last minute and make some SERIOUS inroads against current pricing issues.

The issue is with higher interest rates, people who have lived for over a decade on artificially low rates and people who bought homes they could barely afford; the longer it goes on the angrier they will be because the less $$$ they'll have due to debt servicing.  

I am being quite frank when I say that this is the kind of storm i which the Cons sweep in with 175+ seats without issue and then start ramming some absolutely awful laws through.  

What are you concerned about? Bring up the abortion debate? I think it's more or less settled in Canada. Get ready for doctor revolt for even bringing it up.

I mean, I agree they have their share of religious wackos, are you worried they are going to close the shops on Sunday?

[stawns]

13 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Here's hoping you're right, I'd rather Canada not emulate the US politically more than it already has. 

It'll be interesting to see how things shift over the next couple decades as more and more Canadians are those who have immigrated or second or third generation Canadians. Western birth rates have been on a downturn for decades, the costs of living don't exactly motivate younger generations to have children. And trust me, there are many who'd love to, it's just not viable for a lot of folks economically. As the makeup of Canada's population shifts it's possible it's values may as well. 

lots of immigrants at the anti lgbtq rallies today apparently.  It always amazes how short sighted they are...........when the far right comes for them, and they always do, it's those on the left, lgbtq especially, who are on the front lines fighting for their human rights.

Edited September 20, 2023 by stawns

[ronthecivil]

2 hours ago, Warhippy said:

This is exactly what the Conservatives are campaigning on right now.  Anger and misinformation and this is what their claims of "woke politics" and censorship are promoting.  It's absolute bullshit.  This is a movement being pushed and suggested by members of parliament that was created by Joe Rogan.  That kids are being bullied in to changing their genders because they are being groomed and now kids are crapping in litter boxes because they are acting like and identifying as furries.

This crap did not and does not happen.  But this is what members of the Conservative party are running on.  This is what some of the Convention manifest is laid down to combat and this is wrong.  Like so damned wrong.  

 

Protests against schools teaching children about gender and sexual diversity are planned to take place across B.C. Wednesday.

Posters created by a group called 1 Million March 4 Children say participants are "standing together against gender ideology in schools" — which, in B.C., refers to the teaching of Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity (SOGI) programs in public schools.

Similar events are planned across Canada on Wednesday, with some parents and socially conservative groups protesting LGBTQ-inclusive education policies in the classroom and in extracurricular settings under the banner of parental rights. 

But critics and researchers say the term "parental rights" is a misnomer because it doesn't address the concerns of LGBTQ parents or parents of LGBTQ children.

Counter-rallies are also expected in some communities. 

There is no specific SOGI curriculum in B.C., but K-12 students have subjects around human rights, respecting diversity, and responding to discrimination. 

"Teachers may include discussions around the B.C. Human Rights Code, sexual orientation and gender identity," the provincial government's website says.

Parents can also arrange for alternative ways to educate children about "sensitive topics related to reproduction and sexuality," including learning about them at home or through self-directed studies. This does not mean students can opt out of studying those subjects. 

"It is expected that students will, in consultation with their school, demonstrate their knowledge of the learning standard(s)," the website reads.

Bullying claims

In an interview with CBC News, David Low, one of the organizers of a rally against SOGI programs in Prince George, B.C., claimed children were being "bullied" by teachers into changing their pronouns.

Low, who unsuccessfully ran for school board in byelections earlier this year — losing to two candidates who explicitly endorsed SOGI — said he worries children are being pushed toward getting body-altering surgery without parental knowledge. 

He also said he has heard stories of children identifying as a "kitty cat."

The rumour that there are children or teachers identifying as cats in classrooms is one often cited by opponents of sexual and gender education programs, and has repeatedly been denied by school boards across North America

 

 

 

LOL the kids are probably trolling. I doubt they want to take it as far as a litter box.

BTW I identify as a wizard. What's my pronoun?

Is the right making a mountain out of a molehill? Yup.

Should parents have the right to know? Sure. Just go freaking ask!!!!

[Bob Long]

11 minutes ago, ronthecivil said:

How did Canada feel about the French President coming to Quebec and siding with the separatists? Would we have appreciate out of country votes on whether Canada should be split up? Especially when some of said protestors in Canada have been tied to a plane bomb? That some of them celebrate it?

India has plenty to be pissed at Canada about. No argument on the political cost of sweeping that under the rug though.

did we go kill someone in France over it?

[ronthecivil]

2 hours ago, Warhippy said:

You'd be surprised to know that I really am not what I post here.  I just post counter arguments.  I don't do the party BS.  I keep trying to stress that.  The issue is I don't see much from any current MP or potential leader that stands out as worthy of running our nation.

There's like maybe 3-5 people in parliament I have heard arguments from over the past few years worth mentioning.  I keep saying I am as centrist as one can be and I try to mean that.  There's a bigger picture here and people seem to think that by simply pointing out why one person or the other is blowing smoke that it means you support the other side.  The truth is no.  They're both worthless.

But people like to suggest otherwise.  for me, right now.  Much like since 2015 anyone wanting to be leader needs to be upfront and prove it.  Trudeau didn't deserve it, but he was voted in to vote Harper out.  Harpers party needed to go because they were wildly out of touch.  They were lying about a number of things and they were fudging the numbers.  Trudeau needs to go because he's been essentially ineffective as a leader, his party lead under a minority hasn't actually been terrible at all but as a figurehead the guy is to polarizing and if he refuses to step down he deserves to lose.  This does not mean I am endorsing him or his party.  It just means a refresh is needed and him stepping down for a new party lead and a new properly selected cabinet based on merit and experience is necessary.

With that in mind it also means Poiliverre and his party WHIP need to be held accountable because they most certainly WILL be the next party to lead the nation.  As such the claims they are making need to be held to the light and they need to be held accountable.  A lot of what they are suggesting is not possible without direct overreach or intervention and regulation.  That is not the Conservative way.  They are campaigning heavily on anger and social policy and that is not the Conservative way.  I grew up Conservative and the mindset was business lives or dies by its merit.  People's lives and business are there's.  This campaigning on defending the kids, or not allowing perverts in places or not allowing people to express themselves because it's "gross" is bullshit.  

If Poiliverre wants my attention he will drop 90% of his platform and just be honest about things.  he was a major party cabinet holder for like 6 years.  Him and Callandra spoke for Harper for 4+ years in the house.  He knows better and he is not stupid.  But the issue is I have yet to see anything honest from him or new and original ideas that will not further divide and already polarized nation.  To me that is not a leader.  He was annointed which is great but he isn't there based on merit he's there because he's known and loud and that's no different than Trudeau in 2014/2015

We as a nation deserve better, we deserve honesty and we need to have some bloody politicians who can look further than their own pensions and we're not getting any of it.  So while you may not agree with my political views, please understand I don't have any views that are not directly tied to the issues in our system or that aren't critical of every single member of our federal government because of how they or their party are acting.  if it was truly up to me and I had my say I'd be flipping the house on their ass and having the bloc in charge of certain things, the NDP in charge of housing and corporate taxation.  The cons in charge of international relations and the Libs in charge of trade with the Greens the titular lead because May is about the only one of them with enough prozak to keep them all in line.

Crazy right?

Put the liberals in charge of taxation and the cons in charge of spending. My balanced budget fantasy. Put the Bloc in charge of international relations if only to troll the planet.

[ronthecivil]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

did we go kill someone in France over it?

Nope! If we have proof we have a reason to be pissed too!

Quebec nationalists did kidnap and kill a few Canadian politicians though. In response the feds activated the war measures act. So it's not like we just swept that issue under the rug!

[stawns]

6 minutes ago, ronthecivil said:

 

LOL the kids are probably trolling. I doubt they want to take it as far as a litter box.

BTW I identify as a wizard. What's my pronoun?

Is the right making a mountain out of a molehill? Yup.

Should parents have the right to know? Sure. Just go freaking ask!!!!

it's not that simple.  There are a ton of kids who would get disowned by parents for being queer in any way, thus home is not a safe place for them to be.  Their privacy is to be respected, especially in that case.

[stawns]

5 minutes ago, ronthecivil said:

Put the liberals in charge of taxation and the cons in charge of spending. My balanced budget fantasy. Put the Bloc in charge of international relations if only to troll the planet.

I absolutely believe that we need to have a strong fiscal conservative party in Canada.......it's in our best interest, as a country.  However, the Cons are not fiscally conservative, they are social conservatives who want to control peoples personal lives and spend like crazy when in office.

[ronthecivil]

9 minutes ago, stawns said:

it's not that simple.  There are a ton of kids who would get disowned by parents for being queer in any way, thus home is not a safe place for them to be.  Their privacy is to be respected, especially in that case.

And thus is will be a wedge issue forever. 

[ronthecivil]

9 minutes ago, stawns said:

I absolutely believe that we need to have a strong fiscal conservative party in Canada.......it's in our best interest, as a country.  However, the Cons are not fiscally conservative, they are social conservatives who want to control peoples personal lives and spend like crazy when in office.

Pretty much. Nobody is fiscally conservative. Everyone wants to spend their way out of inflation. 

Canadians are going to have to learn the hard way.

[stawns]

Just now, ronthecivil said:

And thus is will be a wedge issue forever. 

I don't think it's as big of a wedge issue as it's portrayed as.  The majority of Canadians support a persons right to be the best versions of themselves that they can and are fine with their kids exploring that.  Those kids have no issues going to their parents about things and teachers are there for support.  The kids with parents who are strictly against that are just a small number........the privacy of those kids should be respected because it's an issue of safety.  They need to have adults they trust in their lives and educators are almost always that person.  

 

The whole "parents rights" issue is nothing more than manufactured outrage from a small group of people.

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, ronthecivil said:

Pretty much. Nobody is fiscally conservative. Everyone wants to spend their way out of inflation. 

Canadians are going to have to learn the hard way.

while I agree about the fiscal conservative part, I don't agree as much about spending etc.  People tend to think of national debt like they do household debt and it doesn't work the same way.  Social programs should be funded to the fullest, imo

[ronthecivil]

8 minutes ago, stawns said:

I don't think it's as big of a wedge issue as it's portrayed as.  The majority of Canadians support a persons right to be the best versions of themselves that they can and are fine with their kids exploring that.  Those kids have no issues going to their parents about things and teachers are there for support.  The kids with parents who are strictly against that are just a small number........the privacy of those kids should be respected because it's an issue of safety.  They need to have adults they trust in their lives and educators are almost always that person.  

 

The whole "parents rights" issue is nothing more than manufactured outrage from a small group of people.

Well that sounds like the way to deal with it right there...

[ronthecivil]

5 minutes ago, stawns said:

while I agree about the fiscal conservative part, I don't agree as much about spending etc.  People tend to think of national debt like they do household debt and it doesn't work the same way.  Social programs should be funded to the fullest, imo

People are failing at their household debt just as much lol!

How does one define a fully funded social program. What is easily defined is math. If you take in less than you put out, eventually, the piper has to be paid. The only way to defeat even mounting debt is inflation.

Like who care how much you owe if you can inflate you way out of it?

[stawns]

4 minutes ago, ronthecivil said:

Well that sounds like the way to deal with it right there...

and that's the way it works pretty much.  I don't get this whole "parents rights" movement.  Parents have never had the kind of access to their child's education than they do now, and it's been that way for a decade at least.

[stawns]

4 minutes ago, ronthecivil said:

People are failing at their household debt just as much lol!

How does one define a fully funded social program. What is easily defined is math. If you take in less than you put out, eventually, the piper has to be paid. The only way to defeat even mounting debt is inflation.

Like who care how much you owe if you can inflate you way out of it?

national debt never has to be "paid off", just serviced.

[ronthecivil]

2 minutes ago, stawns said:

national debt never has to be "paid off", just serviced.

Well the debt has been reduced in the past, but recently is gone up up up! Now we pay about 24 Billion in interest federally. That's like 8 brand new hospitals a year. Or four hospitals and four major transit projects. A year. Every year. In ten years that's a new hospital in forty towns. It's every transit dream realized.

But instead the people before us downloaded their costs to us. And instead of learning, were doing even worse to the younger generations. 

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, ronthecivil said:

ROFL good luck with that!!!!!

What's sad is I bet a lot of them are deluding into actually believing what they say. 

Fight inflation? EZ! Balance the budget! This can actually win you political points on both sides! The tough choices to get there, not so much.

Fight housing prices? EZ! High interest rates and keeping the old fashioned banking prudence (not extending people for 80 years because they over extending themselves and would face bankruptcy for example) will eventually fix that..

Create rental housing? That's not federal, though I suppose the GST cut helps, but you just need to zone for it and consider taking a lower take rate and density as a carrots to encourage it's construction. That's provincial/municipal though. This IS an EZ solution IMHO.

Easy?

First off that would be the feds admitting that it's not entirely a federal issue.  That it's a provincial issue.  That would be admitting that 8 of our provinces are conservative and have ben conservative for a number of years like on average 5 or more.  Or barring a bump longer than a decade.  Meaning that much of the housing issues are entirely caused by Conservative parties.

That won't fly.

As for Easy?

OK address the following regarding housing.

On 9/19/2023 at 12:12 PM, Warhippy said:

The issue is organically won't help.  It will take direct intervention and or near total regulation of the housing market to reign it in.  That's just not possible.  it would be like trying to regulate or take control of the oil resources in our nation now.  Corporations won't have it.  Other nations won't have it.  Our housing sector has undergone and almost complete financialization since 2008/2009 in which housing has become a line item on a corporate balance sheet.

Try to regulate it, corporations, developers and their property management shells will dump units on to the market en masse thus tanking the housing sector.  They have the cash on hand to then purchase these houses or condos in bulk thus doubling their holdings or more.  This will be lamed on the government.

the other possibility is the direct intervention by the government with subsidized housing and home builds that are under the oversight and control of the government.  Adding 300k+ units on top of the 200=+ already being built means that it will supercharge the level of units on the market.  this will also have the effect of tanking housing prices due to the increased volume.  with so much $ tied up in equity of a home, or reverse mortgages etc and loans taken against homes over the last decade due to the artificially low rates people will lose their asses because of it.

If any of that goes off without a hitch, we don't have the work force to build these homes.  If we did/do then what level of oversight is there?  We won't have the manpower to supervise this which would lead to the same processes that we saw with the leaky condo crisis in the early 90s post expo 86.  Except we're talking a national scale in which entire building complexes are effectively unliveable due to deficiencies in electrical, plumbing or heating/insulation/weatherproofing.  

But the provincial governments makes as much $ in housing at the provincial levels as the feds do in gas/fuel taxes.  Asking the provinces to eschew that level of revenue is not gonna happen.  Now let's suppose that the provinces do all this.  The feds do all this.  Let's ask what happens to the infrastructure issues.  The estimation of an additional 2 million by 2030 means that every moderate to major urban centre will see an influx of at least 20,000 people or more.  Not sure where you live but I am in penticton.  Penticton has a population of 33,000 when you add in all of the surrounding communities but only has about 21,000 in the proper area on sewer, water and gas.  

Doubling the people means every single aspect of the infrastructure grid needs to be doubled.  Power, Water, Sewer, water treatment, roads, hospitals and schools.  In basically no less than 100+ population centres in the nation every single aspect of critical infrastructure will have to be see their capacity doubled.  How much would that cost?  Victoria's water treatment/sewer plant is at or around 41 billion give or take a few million.  Now look at doubling the capacity or replacing every single water treatment plant in the nation for almost every major population centre.  When you consider the 33rd most populous city in canada is Chicoutimi-Jonquiere with 100k people and the 100th largest is Midland Ontario with 26,000 people you realize that there is 70 ish cities in this nation that would see their populaiton increase by 1/5th or in many cases almost double.

There is literally zero easy answers to the single most pressing issue in canada and instead of admitting that we have a party in power saying they'll try; but failing to do anything meaningful in 8 years.  Another party that has a leader promising to fix things and blaming it all on the current party in power and in between we have a party that has had some meaningful ideas but doesn't have the balls to actually hold the current party in powers balls to the fire.

There is no organic answer that will solve this sadly because it's been going on for almost 17 years.

 

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, ronthecivil said:

What are you concerned about? Bring up the abortion debate? I think it's more or less settled in Canada. Get ready for doctor revolt for even bringing it up.

I mean, I agree they have their share of religious wackos, are you worried they are going to close the shops on Sunday?

Wat am I concerned about?

A party governing on anger usually does not have a valid plan for governance after they get in to power.  Having read their convention manifesto which is effectively a blueprint or template for a campaign it is entirely concerning that a significant part of that manifest is actually predicated on division as opposed to cooperation.  It has a significant number of social policies and "anti woke" statements in it and that is not something I have interest in.

Much like the freedom caucus in the US I feel as though the social voices in our Conservative brand have co-opted the party and will force their own issues through.  I do not mean necessarily abortion at all.  Although I believe women's rights will be on the docket in some fashion or in the form of "equality/childrens rights" agendas

I have far more concern or issue with them dictating what can or can not be had, said or done without government intervention.  This comes down to more censorship bull which is just an erroneous or misguided statement about "freedom" being the matter of import.

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, ronthecivil said:

Nope! If we have proof we have a reason to be pissed too!

Quebec nationalists did kidnap and kill a few Canadian politicians though. In response the feds activated the war measures act. So it's not like we just swept that issue under the rug!

sure but that killing was internal. 

Modi is a Trump-style divider, this whole incident is probably boosting his popularity with his base. Whats disappointing to me is how many non-Indian decent Canadians seem to be siding with him, "because Justin." 

[Bob Long]

So this is a new political group that I signed up for (mailing lists, etc.): https://www.centreicecanadians.ca

Its pretty intriguing. The claim to want re-claim the centre, be fiscally responsible, value innovation and stay out of social issues.

We'll see if thats really what it turns into, but I've been looking for this kind of thinking since Judas MacKay merged the PCs with the Reformers.  

[Coconuts]

57 minutes ago, stawns said:

I don't think it's as big of a wedge issue as it's portrayed as.  The majority of Canadians support a persons right to be the best versions of themselves that they can and are fine with their kids exploring that.  Those kids have no issues going to their parents about things and teachers are there for support.  The kids with parents who are strictly against that are just a small number........the privacy of those kids should be respected because it's an issue of safety.  They need to have adults they trust in their lives and educators are almost always that person.  

 

The whole "parents rights" issue is nothing more than manufactured outrage from a small group of people.

I was talking to my partner about this last night, it's not likely that most parents are going to know about all the big things going on in the lives of their children but those who have safe relationships with their children are likelier to know more. 

If a parent doesn't know their child has an LGBTQ+ identity there's probably a reason for it. It's complicated, there are so many factors. It's not always a safe thing to disclose, particularly if you belong to a culture where it's frowned upon or worse. Some folks are disowned, some folks risk losing their support systems by disclosing. Some risk varying forms of abuse via family members or otherwise. Negative stigmas are still strongly associated with the LGBTQ+ regardless of where Canada legally stands on same sex marriage. Information related to how the LGBTQ+ demographic experience assault, sexual assault, marginalization, murder, suicide, and so on are out there for anyone who can be bothered to look. Stigma is a powerful force on personal, public, and structural levels.

Schools should not be able to "out" children and youth, if their parents don't know it's because their children haven't told them and there could be so many different reasons as to why. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Coconuts

[ronthecivil]

8 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

sure but that killing was internal. 

Modi is a Trump-style divider, this whole incident is probably boosting his popularity with his base. Whats disappointing to me is how many non-Indian decent Canadians seem to be siding with him, "because Justin." 

Well Canadians blew up an airplane.....

My point is that both sides have reasons to be upset with each other. Not that it matters on account of extremists of each flavour that feel a need to pick a side.

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, ronthecivil said:

Well Canadians blew up an airplane.....

My point is that both sides have reasons to be upset with each other. Not that it matters on account of extremists of each flavour that feel a need to pick a side.

they certainly did. Built the damn thing in a motel on Kingsway (so I'm told) that's still there. 

For sure there's reason for ruffled feathers, but Modi crossed the line. I would hope that Canadians would see past their dislike of Trudeau to understand that. Thats probably expecting too much. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Bob Long

[Gurn]

Isn't a few nutbars building a bomb different than a government ordering a killing?

Have things changed to the point these acts are equivalent?