Hamas attacking Israel

[Bob Long]

9 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Where the fuck did I say they are pro gay ?

 

Did you read my post that detailed a gay  Palestinian man from Gaza stated 

" LGBT life is arduous and dangerous ".

 

As he then went on to say, as it is in many parts of the world.

 

I then provided evidence of fundamentalists in America and Isreal that share the same views as, some Muslims fundamentalists. 

 

 

 

I present facts, with links to evidence to back up claims. 

 

You are welcome to doubt what you want, that's your privilege. 

 

You made an assertion.

 

Can you provide facts/evidence to back up that assertion ?

 

In some countries Muslim Imams themselves are coming out as gay 

 

Here in Aus 

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-09/gay-imam-hopes-to-open-australias-first-lgbti-friendly-mosque/9310952

 

In France 

 

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/06/gay-imam-islam-paris-france-mosque/

 

In the US 

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/meet-daayiee-abdullah-america-s-gay-imam-1.3109051

 

 

 

In Toronto 

A mosque that welcomes gay people.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/affirming-mosques-help-gay-muslims-reconcile-faith-sexuality-n988151

 

As I have already illustrated there are fundamentalists in Judaism, Islam and Christianity that condemn LGBT people.

 

It isn't only limited to Islamist fundamentalists.

 

Toronto? What kind of false equivalence are you going for here?

 

You really think gay people under Hamas and Iranian influence are as safe in Gaza as Toronto?

 

 

[Bob Long]

8 hours ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

 

Thanks for the head's up.  I assumed there were a fair amount of fundamentalist Muslims in Gaza...

 

I still have my doubts that an openly gay person wouldn't eventually be killed by a fundamentalist in the area, but it's good to learn that it isn't like other places where you'd only last about as long as it would take them to drag you up to the top of a building.

 

I wouldn't be so quick on that one. These leaders also align closely with Iran. We all know what happens there. 

 

 

The Palestinian Authority banned members of the Palestinian Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Queer (LGBTQ) community from carrying out any activities in the West Bank.

 

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/pa-bans-lgbt-activities-in-west-bank-598980

[Sabrefan1]

6 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Brother I have already addressed this claim a couple of pages ago. 

 

" UN denies death toll of women and children has been revised down "

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/13/gaza-ministry-revises-figures-for-women-and-children-killed

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-says-gaza-death-toll-still-over-35000-not-all-bodies-identified-2024-05-13/

 

Bottom line, there are still the same amount of dead bodies, 10,000 haven't been identified.

 

As I detailed in a previous post, some of those bodies are unrecognisable. 

 

That's why reputable media aren't reporting this.

 

 

 

 

That's what I get for not looking into the claims.  Thanks for the information!

[JIAHN]

@Ilunga @Bob Long

 

Gentlemen

 

I do not post in this section often, and I must admit, I am probably more pro-Israeli than pro-Muslim

 

but when I look at the discussion in this thread, I find it absurdly funny

 

IMO, most people of the world are kind, and gentle, and it is the power people of what ever race that 

 

instills anger, hate, fear, and violence.....and it is those people that organize and create war, and up risings

 

They do it in the name of Allah or god, or their state, or their people, but in the end, and as previously stated

 

the meek, just want to live in peace.

 

I find no fundamental difference in Israel's displacement of Muslims in settlements, than the Hamas invasion

 

and kidnapping of Israelis 

 

Death, force, displacement, are all evil, and I am sure not on the minds of the common people, or rather would not

 

be, if not for the power people.

 

The Israeli government has long way to go before saying that they are innocent, but so do Hamas, and friends.

 

This is an age old war or 2000 years, and will continue in one form or another, until peaceful people say, enough is 

 

enough and take control of their own governments.

 

Both side are equally to blame, and both sides share the same responsibility for the mess

 

Both sides are the answer..........

 

 

Edited May 15 by JIAHN

[Sabrefan1]

9 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I wouldn't be so quick on that one. These leaders also align closely with Iran. We all know what happens there. 

 

 

The Palestinian Authority banned members of the Palestinian Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Queer (LGBTQ) community from carrying out any activities in the West Bank.

 

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/pa-bans-lgbt-activities-in-west-bank-598980

 

 

Like I said in my post, I don't doubt that a gay person wouldn't last long, but I was under the assumption that the Gazans were majority fundamentalist Muslims that would kill a gay person on sight.

 

A little tolerance is better than no tolerance.  That said, I don't doubt that an openly gay person's days would be numbered before a fundamentalist does get a hold of him/her.

Edited May 15 by Sabrefan1
Grammar

[Bob Long]

2 hours ago, JIAHN said:

@Ilunga @Bob Long

 

Gentlemen

 

I do not post in this section often, and I must admit, I am probably more pro-Israeli than pro-Muslim

 

but when I look at the discussion in this thread, I find it absurdly funny

 

IMO, most people of the world are kind, and gentle, and it is the power people of what ever race that 

 

instills anger, hate, fear, and violence.....and it is those people that organize and create war, and up risings

 

They do it in the name of Allah or god, or their state, or their people, but in the end, and as previously stated

 

the meek, just want to live in peace.

 

I find no fundamental difference in Israel's displacement of Muslims in settlements, than the Hamas invasion

 

and kidnapping of Israelis 

 

Death, force, displacement, are all evil, and I am sure not on the minds of the common people, or rather would not

 

be, if not for the power people.

 

The Israeli government has long way to go before saying that they are innocent, but so do Hamas, and friends.

 

This is an age old war or 2000 years, and will continue in one form or another, until peaceful people say, enough is 

 

enough and take control of their own governments.

 

Both side are equally to blame, and both sides share the same responsibility for the mess

 

Both sides are the answer..........

 

 

 

we can search for and find false equivalence all the time, J. 

 

Oh this is genocide. OK not really but its bad. Oh this is apartheid. Well, ok not really but is still bad. Now I'm supposed to think Gaza is safe for gay people. Till its not, I suppose.

 

The fact is, Hamas is running Gaza, and they are monsters. Lets change that, then talk.

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

23 hours ago, bishopshodan said:

Some fans in Vancouver wished the original singer of this song liked to make it 'rain', a little less...

 

https://www.straight.com/blogra/526086/20-years-ago-shannon-hoon-blind-melon-pees-stage-vancouver

 

OMG what a freak show that was.  His heroin addiction in full bloom.

 

Few songs articulate one's sadness, brilliantly well. Terrifying helplessness at rejection in a little sunflower who needed also needed to get away from some rain in its video. Never found any brightness. Yet everyone loves listening to this song.   

 

Music as art is too good sometimes. I don't think he lasted but a few weeks.

[JIAHN]

4 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

we can search for and find false equivalence all the time, J. 

 

Oh this is genocide. OK not really but its bad. Oh this is apartheid. Well, ok not really but is still bad. Now I'm supposed to think Gaza is safe for gay people. Till its not, I suppose.

 

The fact is, Hamas is running Gaza, and they are monsters. Lets change that, then talk.

 

 

 

I agree with you Bob, but I guess what I am saying is that you can find both arguments true, depending on who you are talking to.

 

I mean, it is sickening, and yes, it is unsafe to be gay, in Israel, Palestine, some Eastern European countries, some places in the states....

 

as it is to be Muslim in some places, or Chinese, or white!

 

What corner of the world do you want to start on first? I guess that is my point.

 

I tend to feel that your opinions are more broader than some, where as some deal in absolutes. It is why you and I agree on "most" things!

 

I get you....man!

[Bob Long]

13 minutes ago, JIAHN said:

 

I agree with you Bob, but I guess what I am saying is that you can find both arguments true, depending on who you are talking to.

 

I mean, it is sickening, and yes, it is unsafe to be gay, in Israel, Palestine, some Eastern European countries, some places in the states....

 

as it is to be Muslim in some places, or Chinese, or white!

 

What corner of the world do you want to start on first? I guess that is my point.

 

I tend to feel that your opinions are more broader than some, where as some deal in absolutes. It is why you and I agree on "most" things!

 

I get you....man!

 

bingo, so many places are unsafe for every kind of person, its very true. But somehow we don't focus in on these other places quite the same way. 

 

Its fascinating to me how Israel in particular seems to generate so many opinions, I really can't think of another country that has to justify its existence over and over again. Its why the false equivalence arguments get under my skin, they are easy to use against people.

 

 

[JIAHN]

16 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

bingo, so many places are unsafe for every kind of person, its very true. But somehow we don't focus in on these other places quite the same way. 

 

Its fascinating to me how Israel in particular seems to generate so many opinions, I really can't think of another country that has to justify its existence over and over again. Its why the false equivalence arguments get under my skin, they are easy to use against people.

 

 

 

I will say this Bob....and I say with respect

 

I am white, and therefore I side most times with white skinned ideology, but the hypocrisy of that, does not escape me.

 

I do however say, that is pretty much the same way with every race.

[Bob Long]

Just now, JIAHN said:

 

I will say this Bob....and I say with respect

 

I am white, and therefore I side most times with white skinned ideology, but the hypocrisy of that, does not escape me.

 

I do however say, that is pretty much the same way with every race.

 

I'm curious when Jews became "white" , it wasn't always that way in the media.

[JIAHN]

13 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I'm curious when Jews became "white" , it wasn't always that way in the media.

 

I would be curious to do a national DNA test on all Israeli jews. I think it would be very enlightening! Down right funny, I would bet. I am not trying to make any point here, but I do think it would be different than most think.

[Ilunga]

10 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

Toronto? What kind of false equivalence are you going for here?

 

You really think gay people under Hamas and Iranian influence are as safe in Gaza as Toronto?

 

 

 

Why do you ignore what I state in some posts, then try and twist what I post to mean something they don't. 

 

I have stated, and posted articles about what it means to be gay in Gaza.

Some of those articles are written by, or about the experiences of gay men in Gaza. 

 

And I haven't even mentioned Iran.

I know very well the persecution gay men face in that country.

 

 

I posted those articles about gay Imam's to illustrate that even a " conservative " religion such as Islam can change. 

It starts in progressive countries like ours. 

 

It isn't that long ago, well within my lifetime that gay men suffered persecution in our societies. 

 

You guys in Canada were leading in way in regards to LGBT rights.

In 2005, you were only the fourth country in the world to legalise same sex marriage.

That's not even 20 years ago. 

 

We here in Australia didn't do it until 2017.

 

Right up until I was fucking up after leaving school, there was a particular sort of moron over here that used to indulge in " poofter " bashing. 

 

 

Sydney that is, and has been famous for over 40 years, in regards to the gay Mardi gras, that has been held there since 1978.

 

It is also notorious for 

gay gang murders and hate crimes, that happened from 1970 - 2010.

Peaking in the late 80's, early 90's. 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_gang_murders

 

 

So as I have stated Jim.

Being gay in Gaza isn't easy, just as isn't easy in other parts of the world.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, JIAHN said:

 

I would be curious to do a national DNA test on all Israeli jews. I think it would be very enlightening! Down right funny, I would bet. I am not trying to make any point here, but I do think it would be different than most think.

 

 

Pre Zionism there was an amazing spread of Jewish settlements. There had to be some intermingling.  

[Bob Long]

5 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Why do you ignore what I state in some posts, then try and twist what I post to mean something they don't. 

 

I have stated, and posted articles about what it means to be gay in Gaza.

Some of those articles are written by, or about the experiences of gay men in Gaza. 

 

And I haven't even mentioned Iran.

I know very well the persecution gay men face in that country.

 

 

I posted those articles about gay Imam's to illustrate that even a " conservative " religion such as Islam can change. 

It starts in progressive countries like ours. 

 

It isn't that long ago, well within my lifetime that gay men suffered persecution in our societies. 

 

You guys in Canada were leading in way in regards to LGBT rights.

In 2005, you were only the fourth country in the world to legalise same sex marriage.

That's not even 20 years ago. 

 

We here in Australia didn't do it until 2017.

 

Right up until I was fucking up after leaving school, there was a particular sort of moron over here that used to indulge in " poofter " bashing. 

 

 

Sydney that is, and has been famous for over 40 years, in regards to the gay Mardi gras, that has been held there since 1978.

 

It is also notorious for 

gay gang murders and hate crimes, that happened from 1970 - 2010.

Peaking in the late 80's, early 90's. 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_gang_murders

 

 

So as I have stated Jim.

Being gay in Gaza isn't easy, just as isn't easy in other parts of the world.

 

 

What does other parts of the world have to do with this Gaza situation? It has no relevance whatsoever.

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Ilunga]

10 hours ago, JIAHN said:

@Ilunga @Bob Long

 

Gentlemen

 

I do not post in this section often, and I must admit, I am probably more pro-Israeli than pro-Muslim

 

but when I look at the discussion in this thread, I find it absurdly funny

 

IMO, most people of the world are kind, and gentle, and it is the power people of what ever race that 

 

instills anger, hate, fear, and violence.....and it is those people that organize and create war, and up risings

 

They do it in the name of Allah or god, or their state, or their people, but in the end, and as previously stated

 

the meek, just want to live in peace.

 

I find no fundamental difference in Israel's displacement of Muslims in settlements, than the Hamas invasion

 

and kidnapping of Israelis 

 

Death, force, displacement, are all evil, and I am sure not on the minds of the common people, or rather would not

 

be, if not for the power people.

 

The Israeli government has long way to go before saying that they are innocent, but so do Hamas, and friends.

 

This is an age old war or 2000 years, and will continue in one form or another, until peaceful people say, enough is 

 

enough and take control of their own governments.

 

Both side are equally to blame, and both sides share the same responsibility for the mess

 

Both sides are the answer..........

 

 

 

You should know Jan, I am pro human. 

 

Dunno how many times I have stated you can take any group of human beings and find, good to bad, and everything in between. 

 

Again, I have stated that most people just want a safe place to raise their kids.

Food on the table, access to an education, the most basic, fundamental human rights. 

 

I have stated that my " dream " solution would be a one world solution.

Were we view each other as brothers and sisters. 

Were we respect the flora and fauna we share this planet with.

 

Eric Idle and John Du Prez nailed it when they wrote 

 

" And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space 

'Cause it's bugger all down here on earth "

[Ilunga]

14 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

What does other parts of the world have to do with this Gaza situation? It has no relevance whatsoever.

 

It certainly does in the context that gay men have suffered persecution everywhere, including the societies we live in.

Well into our lifetimes. 

 

 

If you want to keep this conversation limited to the treatment of gay men in Gaza. 

 

I am still waiting for you to provide some evidence/facts for your claim, 

I am calling Bullshit on this, in reply to my article written by an NGO that supports LGBTQ people around the world, and their report on Gaza. 

 

 

[Ilunga]

10 hours ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

 

That's what I get for not looking into the claims.  Thanks for the information!

 

You have the courage to reply. 

Big time respect.

 

@Taxi originally posted that information.

I refuted it then with more detailed information. 

 

An article by, The Lancet, one of, if not the worlds most prestigious medical journal. 

 

The article detailed how the numbers of dead, women and children were determined. 

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

bingo, so many places are unsafe for every kind of person, its very true. But somehow we don't focus in on these other places quite the same way. 

 

Its fascinating to me how Israel in particular seems to generate so many opinions, I really can't think of another country that has to justify its existence over and over again. Its why the false equivalence arguments get under my skin, they are easy to use against people.

 

 

 

Again, I started a thread on the humanitarian situation in Gaza on the old board. 

It was, and still is one of the worst humanitarian crises.

 

Apart from @Canuck Surfer and @Gurn and one other poster, no one gave a fuck. 

 

You know what gets under my skin.

Human suffering.

Wherever that is. 

 

I would start a thread about the Kurds, a

subject I brought up on the old board a few time's. 

I know that no one really gives a fuck about them either. 

[Canuck Surfer]

I get why people are mad at Israel.  They as a wealthy nation need to take a responsible leading role. I am not being facetious.  It has to start where accountability is possible.

 

Meanwhile back in Darfur. Its amazing to me that conflicts 5 & 10 times the size of Gaza get less press. Because leaders are corrupt, less embedded in world communities, wealthy? They get away with sneaking over borders, random & widespread killing of all ages to create havoc, taking hostages, burning villages, stealing and raping women.

 

Oh wait?

 

Spoiler

Well actually, their corrupt leaders are almost all more wealthy than Donald Trump. Some exponentially so. The real issue IMO  It's 'their' people that are not wealthy.

 

I maintain my position the corrupt, militant control of so many African & Middle Eastern territories is catatonic.  While we are at it, there has been war in the Caucasus, brewing unrest in Central Asia, all out civil war in Myanmar, extrajudicial killing in Iran, India. That its done in the name of Islam or religion noteworthy, less important than the actual criminal leadership. It's big business awarding yourself tax free control of entire countries. This is by far the more widespread problem IMO than Israel, in real terms.

 

You also have to start somewhere. Israel is committing significant crimes. Meanwhile, meanwhile; I also remain of the belief that Gazans and other groups have to find some meaningful way of contributing to peace. We also need to look at this globally. 

 

 

This happens wherever there is Islamic militancy.

 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, JIAHN said:

 

I would be curious to do a national DNA test on all Israeli jews. I think it would be very enlightening! Down right funny, I would bet. I am not trying to make any point here, but I do think it would be different than most think.

 

Speaking of genetically testing  Jewish people. 

 

https://en.idi.org.il/articles/26956

 

" The high bar set by Halakha for gaining recognition as Jew, has in recent years been raised even higher by a disturbing trend of using genetic testing to establish candidates' Jewishness - essentially a geneticization of the Jewish people. Currently, such tests are private iniativies that the state's rabbinical courts are prepared to accept as evidence of Jewishness. The willingness of an official body to adopt genetic testing as proof of Jewishness marks the first step in the creation of a genetically based Judaism and the widespread use of genetic databases. Beyond the fact that the use of genetics to prove Jewishness is distasteful, it constitutes a dramatic deterioration of the way we define Jewish people. This is a revolution that must be nipped in the bud. " 

 

How would you feel if you were forced to take a " Canadian " genetic test.

 

I wonder what our athiests think about the state's Rabbinical courts, and their actions in regards to this.

[CBH1926]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

Why do you ignore what I state in some posts, then try and twist what I post to mean something they don't. 

 

I have stated, and posted articles about what it means to be gay in Gaza.

Some of those articles are written by, or about the experiences of gay men in Gaza. 

 

And I haven't even mentioned Iran.

I know very well the persecution gay men face in that country.

 

 

I posted those articles about gay Imam's to illustrate that even a " conservative " religion such as Islam can change. 

It starts in progressive countries like ours. 

 

It isn't that long ago, well within my lifetime that gay men suffered persecution in our societies. 

 

You guys in Canada were leading in way in regards to LGBT rights.

In 2005, you were only the fourth country in the world to legalise same sex marriage.

That's not even 20 years ago. 

 

We here in Australia didn't do it until 2017.

 

Right up until I was fucking up after leaving school, there was a particular sort of moron over here that used to indulge in " poofter " bashing. 

 

 

Sydney that is, and has been famous for over 40 years, in regards to the gay Mardi gras, that has been held there since 1978.

 

It is also notorious for 

gay gang murders and hate crimes, that happened from 1970 - 2010.

Peaking in the late 80's, early 90's. 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_gang_murders

 

 

So as I have stated Jim.

Being gay in Gaza isn't easy, just as isn't easy in other parts of the world.

 

We can find crimes against gays in pretty much any country on this planet.

But to be gay in Canada, Netherlands, Scandinavia, Australia etc. is not even in the same hemisphere as being gay in any country with a majority Muslim population. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabegleybloom/2021/03/23/crime-report-20-riskiest-places-for-gay-travelers-and-the-5-

safest/?sh=84483a46d1bf

 

https://www.cntraveller.com/article/safest-countries-for-lgbtq-people

[Canuck Surfer]

15 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

I would start a thread about the Kurds

 

Please do.

 

Since 2000 there is about as many Kurdish dead in Turkey.  As have died in this Gazan war.  Their displacement in this time frame more than doubles Gazan / West Bank population. Turkey has bigger ''security zones'' in Syria & Iraq, housing more people than the Gazan population in refugee camps, than West Bank. I realize 25 years..., this just Turkey.

 

It does not take account of those stoned, or beaten to death protesting in Iran, Kurdish civilians slaughtered in Syrian civil war. Or militants involved. It does not take account of their oppression in Iraq,  where open genocide took place. Nobody was herded out of town before being gassed en masse, men women & children, elderly...

 

I remain of the opinion these are related control struggles to Gaza. Territorial battles by race dominant groups. There is a King in Jordan. A dictator in Syria. I don't know what is going on in Iraq. An autocrat in Egypt, quote / unquote a democracy in Turkey.  Somehow all these groups keep displacing, killing and expelling those who do not belong to their race dominant ruling party. Its fair to ask accountability of Israel with Palestinians, I don't understand why no such movement exists for Kurds.

[Bob Long]

45 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

It certainly does in the context that gay men have suffered persecution everywhere, including the societies we live in.

Well into our lifetimes. 

 

 

If you want to keep this conversation limited to the treatment of gay men in Gaza. 

 

I am still waiting for you to provide some evidence/facts for your claim, 

I am calling Bullshit on this, in reply to my article written by an NGO that supports LGBTQ people around the world, and their report on Gaza. 

 

 

 

Ok, you want to think fundamentalist Muslims are pro gay, fill your boots.