Bag skating and hard practices

[Blue]

45 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

"Bag skate" is part of fan mythos. Like "Forsling" has become.

 

We need to find out who on this team is really willing to put the effort in. 

So you think there is zero circumstances where a team could have lesser human energy due to anything but effort ?

 

If you went through training camp already and have assembled a roster and you still haven't figured out who you trust professionally then you failed as a management and coach. 

 

But I am willing to give Tocc the benefit of the doubt a few times. He's probably playing to the media a bit and saying something different in the room. 

 

 

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Blue said:

So you think there is zero circumstances where a team could have lesser human energy due to anything but effort ?

 

If you went through training camp already and have assembled a roster and you still haven't figured out who you trust professionally then you failed as a management and coach. 

 

But I am willing to give Tocc the benefit of the doubt a few times. He's probably playing to the media a bit and saying something different in the room. 

 

 

 

Why would he say something different in the room ?

 

That would be a great way to lose credibility with his team.

 

Look at Tocc's resume. He knows what it takes to win tough games. 

 

This team has been soft for far too long. 

[Gawdzukes]

2 hours ago, Blue said:

 

Trump level logic here. Looks like they all failed the test equally. Even the players who spent the summer in the gym. So trade everyone. 

 

As I said, go ahead and double down on what didn't work then. Have a bag skate before and after the flight. 

 

 Just bag skate the team daily, and we will win the cup. How has no one thought of this before. It is so easy this way. You don't have to think about anything. 

 

 

 

You're the only one using Trump level logic here Blue. Just because something happened and then something else happened doesn't mean they are related. Should they stop eating fruit at breakfast because they did that before the game too? What horrible powers of deduction you have.

 

Really you're flipping out on a hard practice for no reason. You weren't there. You didn't even see how hard they practiced. You weren't there in training camp to see what they were working on. You weren't in any of the meetings when they discussed the game plan before the game. You didn't talk to the players the day of the game to see if they were tired. You weren't on the bench during the game and you weren't in the dressings room after the game to see what went wrong. You also didn't hear any players complain after the game that they were too tired to play because of a practice.

 

Really you have no clue what you're talking about and just going on a wild rampage for no reason at all except maybe your expectations are way to high and pre-mature at this stage of the season.

 

1 hour ago, Blue said:

 

You aren't interested in what really caused it Trump. Your solution is to double down on what actually caused it. And the Torterella era proved this. The whole whip em meme got old rather quickly and the wheels fell off and Torts was fired. And a bunch of yahoos quickly changed their avatars 

 

No I'm actually not overly interested in finding out the exact reason behind the great Philadelphia debacle Inspector Donald. Bad games happen. It's a learning process for the team and they need to get better and learn from the loss. Just like any team. They know that. Personally I think they were just all afraid to screw up their good start and everybody came out tight and static hoping the next guy was going to do the job.

 

It's way to early to start whining about how hard they practiced. Sheesh! 

[Blue]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Why would he say something different in the room ?

 

That would be a great way to lose credibility with his team.

 

Look at Tocc's resume. He knows what it takes to win tough games. 

 

This team has been soft for far too long. 

 

 Do you think there could be any circumstances other than effort that could negatively effect the energy levels of the team ? Yes or no.

[Bob Long]

6 minutes ago, Blue said:

 

 Do you think there could be any circumstances other than effort that could negatively effect the energy levels of the team ? Yes or no.

 

Maybe one guy. 

 

Bieksa called it out, this team has been far too easy to play against.

 

If we're complaining that a hard practice is unfair holy shit this team is in real trouble.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Bob Long

[CanucksJay]

19 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Why would he say something different in the room ?

 

That would be a great way to lose credibility with his team.

 

Look at Tocc's resume. He knows what it takes to win tough games. 

 

This team has been soft for far too long. 

 

SMH... Team doesnt show up in the 3rd game of the season while having a mediocre 2nd game where they were fortunate to pull out a win and people are calling a tough practice a "bag skate" and that the coach should ease off?

 

It's a problem when the fan base coddles their players and doesnt ask for accountability.

 

A bagskate is not the reason the team decided to play with no pride.  Every whistle, a Flyer would come with an extra nudge / hit.  Happened to Miller who was the only guy that played with some pride and fought back.  He was literally in a 3 v 1 scrum while his teammates watched...

 

A guy like Joshua needed to set the tone last night and it didnt happen. If Joshua is not gonna show up for these types of games, I dont see why he's on the team. 

The team collectively played with no pride. That has nothing to do with a bag skate.

 

Even if they're sick as a dog and slow to get to pucks, if the opposition is taking extra shots on them or their teammates, they need to fight.

 

The philly broadcast was right on.  When someone ran DiGiuseppi from behind and Juulsen jumped in, the broadcasters were saying they have no problem with that.

It is a 2-0 game and a PP might have helped make it 2-1 but the broadcasters are old school Flyers (i forgot which players).  Anyway they said, game 3 in the season, it's more about pride and setting the tone than worrying about losing / negating a powerplay.

 

The fan base here probably whined because we care more about goals and final score than the process.  RT (another former Flyer) is here to fix that. He said the word soft.  I hope we see a tougher team going forward

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

 

SMH... Team doesnt show up in the 3rd game of the season while having a mediocre 2nd game where they were fortunate to pull out a win and people are calling a tough practice a "bag skate" and that the coach should ease off?

 

It's a problem when the fan base coddles their players and doesnt ask for accountability.

 

A bagskate is not the reason the team decided to play with no pride.  Every whistle, a Flyer would come with an extra nudge / hit.  Happened to Miller who was the only guy that played with some pride and fought back.  He was literally in a 3 v 1 scrum while his teammates watched...

 

A guy like Joshua needed to set the tone last night and it didnt happen. If Joshua is not gonna show up for these types of games, I dont see why he's on the team. 

The team collectively played with no pride. That has nothing to do with a bag skate.

 

Even if they're sick as a dog and slow to get to pucks, if the opposition is taking extra shots on them or their teammates, they need to fight.

 

The philly broadcast was right on.  When someone ran DiGiuseppi from behind and Juulsen jumped in, the broadcasters were saying they have no problem with that.

It is a 2-0 game and a PP might have helped make it 2-1 but the broadcasters are old school Flyers (i forgot which players).  Anyway they said, game 3 in the season, it's more about pride and setting the tone than worrying about losing / negating a powerplay.

 

The fan base here probably whined because we care more about goals and final score than the process.  RT (another former Flyer) is here to fix that. He said the word soft.  I hope we see a tougher team going forward

 

Deslauriers skating around with that grin on his face was painful. 

 

Green didn't just do a number on the team, apparently the fan base as well. We're used to watching soft play. Bo is a great human, but I'm glad he's not here because I don't think Green did him any favours. Last night was a perfect time for him to not show up physically. 

 

[Mrwipeout]

well i just know the team didnt have as much energy as the flyers did. id say thats why we lost. u gotta take into consideration how the players physique is...recovery vs trainin.... im not the coach but if theres a reason then theres a reason. might as well get that bad game out of the way and hope for a good recovery and come out energized for the next one...its not all mental....could also be simple fatigue.... not sure what is what 

[Ballisticsports]

Tocchet was a tough hockey player, and saw many coaches in his life and knows how players react to a coach or lose the players

I have no issue with how him and management are trying to make this team better

 

Bring back the Country Club atmosphere is what some players and very few fans want? Heck no !

 

Where is it reported that it was a bag skate anyways?

 

RT wasn't happy just because we stole the 2nd game and what good coach wouldn't address that and try to get his players playing the right way?

[TheGuardian]

A big issue for many of the coaches the Canucks have had is that their resume's are mostly eastern teams where just about half their schedules could be done with a bus ride.

Does ANYBODY not realize what just being in a plane does? Most of these coaches don't apparently.

 

CHEMISTRY! Something that happens with repetitive familiarity, playing together.

 

IMO, playing by committee can mean a few things and "structure" also carries some thoughts.

 

Structure is something to substitute for chemistry, dumb the game down and try to get all the pieces to play the same. This requires the same kind of physical attributes, skills or thought processes. Unless the parts are put together with this concept there will be a lot of putting square pegs in round holes. Resulting in mistakes as some players alter what they did to get noticed and into the NHL. 

 

Committee to me seems to be make all the players the same or try to, plug and play. This is something accomplished by the old NJD and for a while Tampa. AV did this for a few years until the "room" took over. He dumbed the team down to the lowest common denominator but he also had an old school way of forcing players to follow his way until the "room" said something. When that happened can be seen in the standings and stats.

4 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

Yeah damn that coach for using words like accountability and pushing his team to work harder. 
What this team really needs after mailing in an effort like last night is some kid gloves and coddling. 

Is this any different from past years?

This year there are some differences with players but the core is the same with the same issues the last two games as the last 6 years.

 

IT IS TOO EARLY yet to think this year's group will be the same but the last two are not necessarily inspiring.

 

10 hours ago, 24K said:

Think the issue at hand is the team didn't get enough rest. 

Why didn't they get enough rest? What time did they fly in? How many hours is needed to get rest? I can see it if they practiced just before the game but they have had many more shorter periods between games in short weeks and not had what has happened the last two game.

DeSmith stole the Edmonton game, there is no way giving up 100 shot attempts for that team was something to champion as "something new"

 

IMO I think the group is fragile mentally. After years of developing this losing culture a loud voice isn't going to change the spots on the leopard.

 

[-dlc-]

54 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Maybe one guy. 

 

Bieksa called it out, this team has been far too easy to play against.

 

If we're complaining that a hard practice is unfair holy shit this team is in real trouble.

Not "unfair", maybe "ill timed".

 

Season start, guys coming off the flu (and who knows...maybe some others coming down with it?), road trip.

 

Just something to consider other than "same ol". I'm tired of the team never getting any support because people are traumatized over the past. I think offering something to offset the "they're just awful" is ok. Not making excuses, just counter arguments for maybe why we saw a lacklustre effort.

 

Because I, for one, don't think they're as terrible a team as some immediately jump to. And don't think it's a matter of not caring/trying.

 

Anyhow...I do like that Tocchet isn't easy on them. But this is a team that knows what it feels like to lose and I can't imagine that we won't see something better next game. People saying we lost because Edmonton didn't win are part of the crowd that never gives this team credit, even when it's due. 

[The Duke]

It’s a marathon, not a sprint.  
 

We don’t need to overanalyze the causes of every individual loss along the way.  The bottom line is this is the kind of let down the team has been having for the past 6 years.  They have a lot of trouble following up a big win (or two) with another professional effort.

 

That said, maybe the game was a perfect storm of the flu, travel, early start, a motivated Philly team on their home opener, a bit of a mental lapse, a hard practice… whatever. It wasn’t good enough and just a week ago we’ve seen them at a much higher level.  

The trick now is to get back up instead of laying in the mud.

[TheGuardian]

25 minutes ago, -dlc- said:

Not "unfair", maybe "ill timed".

 

Season start, guys coming off the flu (and who knows...maybe some others coming down with it?), road trip.

 

Just something to consider other than "same ol". I'm tired of the team never getting any support because people are traumatized over the past. I think offering something to offset the "they're just awful" is ok. Not making excuses, just counter arguments for maybe why we saw a lacklustre effort.

 

Because I, for one, don't think they're as terrible a team as some immediately jump to. And don't think it's a matter of not caring/trying.

 

Anyhow...I do like that Tocchet isn't easy on them. But this is a team that knows what it feels like to lose and I can't imagine that we won't see something better next game. People saying we lost because Edmonton didn't win are part of the crowd that never gives this team credit, even when it's due. 

I DONOT want to start an argument but,

 

How did the fans become " I'm tired of the team never getting any support because people are traumatized over the past." Shouldn't the fans be more careful before throwing too much optimism in this season?

Any "trauma" has been nurtured by the Canucks over the last 8/9 years. If tired of it shouldn't your attention be more on what the causes are?

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by TheGuardian

[TheGuardian]

10 minutes ago, The Duke said:

It’s a marathon, not a sprint.  
 

We don’t need to overanalyze the causes of every individual loss along the way.  The bottom line is this is the kind of let down the team has been having for the past 6 years.  They have a lot of trouble following up a big win (or two) with another professional effort.

 

That said, maybe the game was a perfect storm of the flu, travel, early start, a motivated Philly team on their home opener, a bit of a mental lapse, a hard practice… whatever. It wasn’t good enough and just a week ago we’ve seen them at a much higher level.  

The trick now is to get back up instead of laying in the mud.

All to true

 

But really they only had one good game out of the 3 played. Goalie's stealing or covering up games does not mean great overall improvement. Again Rutherford stated how much  Demko was covering up bigger problems. I will keep on pointing out almost 200 shot attempts against in two games, 82 shots on goal.

 

You're quite right about comparing the past 6 (although you can go back farther) years to each year.

Edited October 18, 2023 by TheGuardian

[-dlc-]

21 minutes ago, TheGuardian said:

I DONOT want to start an argument but,

 

How did the fans become " I'm tired of the team never getting any support because people are traumatized over the past." Shouldn't the fans be more careful before throwing too much optimism in this season?

Any "trauma" has been nurtured by the Canucks over the last 8/9 years. If tired of it shouldn't your attention be more on what the causes are?

 

This roster hasn't been here for 8/9 years.

 

I don't see "too much" optimism but it's ok to have some. The convincing win against a team touted to be a top team did mean something. Even if followed up by a squeaked out win...they count. 

 

I think it's important to not "decide" or assess the team on a game by game basis. The goal isn't to slay it all year, every game, without fail. It's to make the playoffs and then get the results you need there. And a stinker of a loss early on in a big picture way isn't too concerning. Unless you are somehow assigning the past to the here and now...I tend not to do that. It hardly seems fair.

 

There will be wins AND losses...even some stinkers. That's not just our team, that's all teams. And even IF a team kills it all year then loses in the end, did it even matter? I mean, the Bruins season was awesome but....what did it count for in the end?

 

So my thing is to accept wins and losses without calling the team "the best" or "worst". Some have us pegged pretty close to "the worst" because they somehow apply the past near decade to these players. I don't know that that's fair.

 

I want this team to do well and support them without throwing in the towel every time they underperform. For whatever reason.

[KoreanHockeyFan]

Tocchet's post-game was pretty critical. Has he been this strict on his past teams?

 

I remember there being a story where the other coaching staff had to calm down Tocchet after the Canucks played terribly last year during a particular game when he had just started coaching the Canucks. 

 

HIs post-game interview, plus this story on his reaction after a bad game last year makes me wonder if he's just really passionate, or the Canucks dressing room really does have a lazy work ethic culture. I forget who it was. but wasn't there another pundit who claimed the Canucks dressing room gave off country club vibes? 

 

Is Tocchet's frustration with the Canucks a common theme amongst previous Canucks coaches? Tocchet might just be more vocal about it? 

Edited October 18, 2023 by KoreanHockeyFan

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, -dlc- said:

Not "unfair", maybe "ill timed".

 

Season start, guys coming off the flu (and who knows...maybe some others coming down with it?), road trip.

 

Just something to consider other than "same ol". I'm tired of the team never getting any support because people are traumatized over the past. I think offering something to offset the "they're just awful" is ok. Not making excuses, just counter arguments for maybe why we saw a lacklustre effort.

 

Because I, for one, don't think they're as terrible a team as some immediately jump to. And don't think it's a matter of not caring/trying.

 

Anyhow...I do like that Tocchet isn't easy on them. But this is a team that knows what it feels like to lose and I can't imagine that we won't see something better next game. People saying we lost because Edmonton didn't win are part of the crowd that never gives this team credit, even when it's due. 

 

I just think culture is hard to build and maintain. If it takes a few hard lessons so be it. 

[TheGuardian]

23 minutes ago, -dlc- said:

I want this team to do well and support them without throwing in the towel every time they underperform. For whatever reason.

I support them too BUT there comes a time when support for NOT improving becomes enablement. Supporting half assed efforts and accepting unfounded statements of improvement with no change in effort.

When seats become empty isn't it amazing that team's suddenly start winning or changing the story. 

23 minutes ago, -dlc- said:

This roster hasn't been here for 8/9 years

Exactly, this shows that there is or may be an instituted culture of losing.

 

Almost no Canuck draft picks going back 8+ years has played in a winning season, no correct that NO Canuck draft pick OR player traded for in that time. This is Petey's 6th year and Huggy Bear's 5th, Boeser's 8th.

15 minutes ago, KoreanHockeyFan said:

Tocchet's post-game was pretty critical. Has he been this strict on his past teams?

Well OEL demanded a trade when he was in Arizona and for some mysterious reason the Canucks made a huge mistake and bought him out in an ill advised buyout that will hurt the team for years.

 

IMO Tocchet has a very short shelf life. You can only try to put square pegs in round holes for so long, this team is just a bad mix and now has no confidence. They have become "professionals". Paid for 82 games, not wins.

Edited October 18, 2023 by TheGuardian

[Lewlowned]

16 hours ago, N4ZZY said:

I guess we'll see. I wasn't aware that they were being bag skated 12 hours before the game. 

 

It wasn’t 12 hours before the game, it was the previous day. I believe the poster was saying 12 hours before travel and all that. 
 

These are professional athletes who had a hard practice in the morning of the day before a game. Hardly seems reasonable to use that as some sort of excuse for the lack of effort the team showed.

 

The flu is more likely. But generally it was a bad game by the team.

[Blue]

2 hours ago, Mando27 said:

Lmao at blaming coaching already, it's a good thing they are having hard practices early on. Canucks struggle with conditioning, nice to see the coaching staff trying to remedy that.

 

 

https://runnersconnect.net/coach-corner/how-to-manage-fatigue-and-why-it-is-necessary/

 

The basis for all training theory is the what we call the workout and recovery process.

Running first breaks down your muscle fibers. The harder you run, the more muscle fibers you damage.

 

That’s how you become faster and stronger through training.

 

But, as you may realize, it’s nearly impossible to fully recover from a workout in 24 hours.

 

It might be possible following a very easy day of running, but any type of speed, tempo or long run is going to require anywhere from 2 to 14 days to fully absorb and recover (here’s a breakdown of what research says about how long it takes to recover from different workout types).

That means, unless you want to only run two or three times per week, training while fatigued is a necessary part of training; especially since we know slow, easy mileage is the best way to build aerobic endurance and is the foundation for running performance.

 

But according to the Effort Bros, this is all bullshit. There is no science. There's just bag skating and effort!

Edited October 18, 2023 by Blue

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

As much as I have reservations about Dick Tocch the person, I have no issue with having a purported bag skate after a long flight.  He's helping the players understand and set expectations of the conditions they will need to face when they're in the playoffs.

 

Nobody gives a fuck that you've been on a plane for 6 hours to get to your next game.  Nobody gives a fuck about the flu ripping through the team.  Those are excuses that the team needs to find ways to work against, around, or through - and they must succeed with their objective of winning games if they want to progress in the playoffs.

 

So if players can't find the fortitude to soldier on under these conditions (which they will encounter in the playoffs), maybe they should consider a career in the A, the K, or the S.

[Blue]

BTW Im not blaming the coach. I want Tocc to succeed and he had the right idea not to let complacency set it. BUT at the same time, he might have made a error with the bag skate. I trust that most of our players are professionals. So when literally all of them are low on energy, (except the guy who didnt play the last game and was resting) then maybe an error was made.

[-dlc-]

29 minutes ago, TheGuardian said:

I support them too BUT there comes a time when support for NOT improving becomes enablement. Supporting half assed efforts and accepting unfounded statements of improvement with no change in effort.

When seats become empty isn't it amazing that team's suddenly start winning or changing the story. 

Exactly, this shows that there is or may be an instituted culture of losing.

 

Almost no Canuck draft picks going back 8+ years has played in a winning season, no correct that NO Canuck draft pick OR player traded for in that time. This is Petey's 6th year and Huggy Bear's 5th, Boeser's 8th.

Well OEL demanded a trade when he was in Arizona and for some mysterious reason the Canucks made a huge mistake and bought him out in an ill advised buyout that will hurt the team for years.

 

IMO Tocchet has a very short shelf life. You can only try to put square pegs in round holes for so long, this team is just a bad mix and now has no confidence. They have become "professionals". Paid for 82 games, not wins.

We're 3 games in and already you're determining "no change in effort/improvement". I just think you're prematurely determining that and, in your own words, it's based on the past several years.

 

I feel that you're jaded by the past (and perhaps rightfully so) but it's not really fair to jump the gun here and assume this team's a bust yet. Right out of the gates, and (no matter how they've come by it) with a 2-1 record. Which IS an improvement over the 7-0 start last year. You're not giving credit where it's due. Or are we now looking for flawless wins (that don't give any extra points).

 

"There comes a time" but I don't feel it's 3 games in, that's all.

[BPA]

I would say it was an ill timed practice.  

As @Blue mentioned, there needs to be a recovery period.  Otherwise why not have back to back to back to back games?  Recovery is important.  Especially for a team recovering from the flu.

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

6 minutes ago, -dlc- said:

I don't feel it's 3 games in, that's all.

 

Setting the expectations early is actually very important.  It's impossible to fix habits that have gone uncorrected by mid-season.  After the way they were outplayed in Game 2, setting the tone and letting the players know, "These are the conditions you'll be facing in the playoffs" and allowing them to build that consistency early is what will help the team climb over the hump.  If you're waiting until a half dozen shit-for-effort games have passed, it's already too late to correct anything.