Rick Tocchet's treatment of Kuzmenko is starting to get upsetting

[Jeremy Hronek]

Before I get into this post, I'll pre-face it by stating that I'm a huge fan of Tocchet's coaching and the work he has done in Vancouver.

 

The guy has implemented a very structured system that mandates two-way hockey and holds players accountable.

 

However - perhaps one can make the following argument:

 

1) Poor-to-Mediocre coaches have their heads in their own sphincters with their tongues hanging out (i.e. Willie Desjardins, Tom Renney, Rick Ley, etc.)

 

2) Average to "very good" coaches know how to implement systems and get most of their players to buy in (i.e. Tocchet).  [players need to adjust to the system]

 

3) The greatest coaches in the league know how to implement and tailor systems that cater to individual strengths (i.e.  Pat Quinn, Scotty Bowman, Joel Quennville, etc.). [systems are implemented to maximize player strengths].

 

Which leads me to our current Tocchet/Kuzmenko situation.  For the life of me, I don't understand what the hell Tocchet is doing with Kuzmenko here. Sure, Kuzmenko has significant warts in his game but he also has significant strengths........strengths that we could use right now (i.e. putting the puck in the net].  Instead of trying to fit square pegs into round holes, Tocchet needs to allow a bit of flexibility as far as Kuz goes.  By continuously making him a healthy scratch and/or playing him on the 4th line, all you're doing is hurting the guy's confidence...........and if Tocchet isn't careful, this could start making others in the locker room upset. Kuzmenko is a popular and well-liked teammate that has a lot to offer this team.  Play the guy, give him some rope, and let him play his way out of his funk.  If this isn't an option for Tocchet, then just move the guy ASAP and get rid of the potentially burgeoning elephant in the room.  

 

EDIT:  Something interesting that I found:  

The 2022/2023 season stats seems to indicate that Kuzmenko's "dip" in play this season might have more to do with the following:

 

-Unsustainably high shooting percentage

-Not being in shape

 

As opposed to Kuzmenko not being a good fit for Tocchet's system.  Based on Kuzmenko's performance last season under Tocchet, there was no dip whatsoever in AK's performance. In fact, he might have actually played even better.  

 

Kuzmenko's 2022-2023 season output:   39G + 35A = 74P (81 games)

Kuzmenko's production when Tocchet took over last season:   20G + 13A = 33P (36 games)

https://www.espn.com/nhl/player/gamelog/_/id/5077308/year/2023

Edited January 7 by Jeremy Hronek

[Bob Long]

So a couple of weeks ago Kuzy's agent says everyone is on the same page and there's a plan. 

 

No one has revealed that plan, and we've only had a handful of games since the comment.

 

Maybe someone can elaborate on what they think the "plan" is and how its not working, before we get upset?

 

[Jeremy Hronek]

16 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

So a couple of weeks ago Kuzy's agent says everyone is on the same page and there's a plan. 

 

No one has revealed that plan, and we've only had a handful of games since the comment.

 

Maybe someone can elaborate on what they think the "plan" is and how its not working, before we get upset?

 

 

Fair enough point but I can't stop thinking about that game awhile back where Kuzmenko was the #1 star and was interviewed. You could tell that Kuzmenko was getting emotional during the speech, and that all of those healthy scratches/4th line stints had gotten to him.  

 

The Canucks and the coaching staff need to figure this Kuzmenko stuff out.  

 

If there is a plan in place, it looks like Rosie O'Donnell's shit to me.  

Edited January 5 by Jeremy Hronek

[HKSR]

4 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

So a couple of weeks ago Kuzy's agent says everyone is on the same page and there's a plan. 

 

No one has revealed that plan, and we've only had a handful of games since the comment.

 

Maybe someone can elaborate on what they think the "plan" is and how its not working, before we get upset?

 

Keep him in the press box so he doesn't get hurt so they can trade him to a team and coach that appreciates what he does bring to the table -- 39 frigging goals in a season... something only 1 other current Canuck has ever done in a single season.

[Jeremy Hronek]

Despite Kuzmenko's mediocre play to begin the season (which if we're being honest, wasn't really *that* bad), Pettersson had 20 points in the first 10 games. Is it coincidence that Petey's game started to drop ever since Tocchet started treating Kuzmenko like Lonny Bohonos?  

Edited January 5 by Jeremy Hronek

[kettlevalley]

I believe the plan has to do with fitness.  And he is being scratched because he has certain fitness goals to hit to be able to skate harder and play both directions.  

 

I agree we need his scoring and having Karlsson come from the farm and start over him is concerning.  

[kettlevalley]

Honestly I want Pods up to and ready to play like a GD power forward like he should.  Seems he is a shooting machine in Abby now.  

[Jeremy Hronek]

3 minutes ago, kettlevalley said:

I believe the plan has to do with fitness.  And he is being scratched because he has certain fitness goals to hit to be able to skate harder and play both directions.  

 

I agree we need his scoring and having Karlsson come from the farm and start over him is concerning.  

 

But Kuz's fitness wasn't an issue last season was it?  Or did Kuz celebrate a little too much this past off-season?   

 

I wouldn't mind seeing your Podkolzin idea come to fruition if he's truly ready.  

[Bob Long]

12 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

Fair enough point but I can't stop thinking about that game awhile back where Kuzmenko was the #1 star and was interviewed. You could tell that Kuzmenko was getting emotional during the speech, and that all of those healthy scratches/4th line shit had gotten to him.  

 

The Canucks and the coaching staff need to figure this Kuzmenko shit out.  

 

If there is a plan in place, it looks like Rosie O'Donnell's shit to me.  

 

I guess I don't really care that much about the emotional part, I mean thats why he's getting 5.5 million per year. Its a hard job. 

 

I do agree that the plan seems strict.... just not sure exactly what the plan is. Maybe its off ice conditioning? dunno. I was hoping someone could tease out some more details on it.

[BC_Hawk]

25 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

Despite Kuzmenko's mediocre play to begin the season (which if we're being honest, wasn't really *that* bad), Pettersson had 20 points in the first 10 games. Is it coincidence that Petey's game started to drop ever since Tocchet started treating Kuzmenko like Lonny Bohonos?  

And that there is the problem; benching him is affecting Petey's game and overall scoring. Though a nice story, Lafferty's success on the Top line was short lived. He looked absolutely terrible there last night; his stick is where offense went to die!

[AnthonyG]

32 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

Before I get into this post, I'll pre-face it by stating that I'm a huge fan of Tocchet's coaching and the work he has done in Vancouver.

 

The guy has implemented a very structured system that mandates two-way hockey and holds players accountable.

 

However - perhaps one can make the following argument:

 

1) Poor-to-Mediocre coaches have their heads in their own sphincters with their tongues hanging out (i.e. Willie Desjardins, Tom Renney, Rick Ley, etc.)

 

2) Average to "very good" coaches know how to implement systems and get most of their players to buy in (i.e. Tocchet).  [players need to adjust to the system]

 

3) The greatest coaches in the league know how to implement and tailor systems that cater to individual strengths (i.e.  Pat Quinn, Scotty Bowman, Joel Quennville, etc.). [systems are implemented to maximize player strengths].

 

Which leads me to our current Tocchet/Kuzmenko situation.  For the life of me, I don't understand what the hell Tocchet is doing with Kuzmenko here. Sure, Kuzmenko has significant warts in his game but he also has significant strengths........strengths that we could use right now (i.e. putting the puck in the net].  Instead of trying to fit square pegs into round holes, Tocchet needs to allow a bit of flexibility as far as Kuz goes.  By continuously making him a healthy scratch and/or playing him on the 4th line, all you're doing is hurting the guy's confidence...........and if Tocchet isn't careful, this could start making others in the locker room upset. Kuzmenko is a popular and well-liked teammate that has a lot to offer this team.  Play the guy, give him some rope, and let him play his way out of his funk.  If this isn't an option for Tocchet, then just move the guy ASAP and get rid of the potentially burgeoning elephant in the room.  

Theres a few different ways to look at this… Kuzmenko never earned a top 6 spot, he was handed one, so yes maybe the coaches leash will be a little tighter on Kuzmenko over someone like Boeser. If there is a system/style of play that Tocchet wants to see from every player and Kuzmenko isnt buying in, he will sit. Until he learns to buy in. Now thats not saying Kuzmenko hasn’t bought in either, he is having to learn how to re-invent himself, squash old habits and implement new tools to his game that dont come naturally or as easy. So perhaps part of the reason of being in the pressbox is to get an overall view of how each and every line is playing and to focus on positioning in all 3 zones, what to do without the puck/with the puck or if hes the support man near the puck. He can also study the F1 and F2 forecheck and after watching it for a game or 2, he gets reinserted into the lineup in a bottom 6 role that is primarily about forecheck. Idk if this may be the plan/system they are using to build more of an all around game to Kuzmenko and he will find himself back in the top 6 with a little longer leash once they see that…

Ultimately you can see a difference in Boesers game much more than in Kuzmenko’s game.

[kettlevalley]

21 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

But Kuz's fitness wasn't an issue last season was it?  Or did Kuz celebrate a little too much this past off-season?   

 

I wouldn't mind seeing your Podkolzin idea come to fruition if he's truly ready.  

I have read a couple articles that say that the team was all in shape at training camp BUT Joshua and Kuz.  And that Joshua got caught up.  Therefore implying that fitness is the Kuz issue.  

[theochar]

Players turn into to coaches that want players like they used to be, this happens in any sport the examples are endless.

 

Tocchet was a essentially a thug that happened to have really good hands and scored a lot of goals. He told a story when he was traded to Pittsburgh that he kept dumping the puck in and chasing it, Mario told him to cut that shit out we wasn't in Philly anymore. 

 

Rick likes grinders with good hands but this is not east to find so he is trying to instill some "grind" into the skilled players. It seems like a good plan skill guys are smart and talented so you just need an uptick in effort. Genius players like Gretzky and Maradona were shit coaches because no player could match what they were as players. Johan Cruyff was the exception but he flourished as team president and established a whole culture at Barcelona. Mourihno was a crappy defender and based his philosophy on parking the bus and winning but didn't win many fans etc etc.

 

So we get to a guy like Kuzmenko who's not really getting what Tocchet is trying to do. He is seeing Lafferty and Suter on Petey's line going WTF, I'm with Kuzzy on this one. Tocchet needs to move to the next level of asset management, Lafferty and Suter are disposable assets Kuzzy is not its really that simple. Its not like Kuzmenko is a diva hes got a great attitude and a joy for the game. He needs an arm around the shoulder instead of a kick up the arse its so obvious. Tocchet can afford to cut him some slack without "losing the room", plugs and grinders know they are plugs and grinders so wont get arsey if a skill guy gets a softer ride, its reflected in the salary. Sort it out!!!!!

 

[Nucker67]

I think some people here are a lot more upset than Kuzmenko. He's just happy to be in the NHL, Millstein says they have a plan, his agent isn't even concerned.  

 

But sure, let's start a Tocchet witch hunt if that makes you feel better.

 

Keep in mind, without Tocchet, this team would be bottom feeders again. 

[Jeremy Hronek]

1 minute ago, theochar said:

Players turn into to coaches that want players like they used to be, this happens in any sport the examples are endless.

 

Tocchet was a essentially a thug that happened to have really good hands and scored a lot of goals. He told a story when he was traded to Pittsburgh that he kept dumping the puck in and chasing it, Mario told him to cut that shit out we wasn't in Philly anymore. 

 

Rick likes grinders with good hands but this is not east to find so he is trying to instill some "grind" into the skilled players. It seems like a good plan skill guys are smart and talented so you just need an uptick in effort. Genius players like Gretzky and Maradona were shit coaches because no player could match what they were as players. Johan Cruyff was the exception but he flourished as team president and established a whole culture at Barcelona. Mourihno was a crappy defender and based his philosophy on parking the bus and winning but didn't win many fans etc etc.

 

So we get to a guy like Kuzmenko who's not really getting what Tocchet is trying to do. He is seeing Lafferty and Suter on Petey's line going WTF, I'm with Kuzzy on this one. Tocchet needs to move to the next level of asset management, Lafferty and Suter are disposable assets Kuzzy is not its really that simple. Its not like Kuzmenko is a diva hes got a great attitude and a joy for the game. He needs an arm around the shoulder instead of a kick up the arse its so obvious. Tocchet can afford to cut him some slack without "losing the room", plugs and grinders know they are plugs and grinders so wont get arsey if a skill guy gets a softer ride, its reflected in the salary. Sort it out!!!!!

 

 

Playing guys like Lafferty and Suter on Petey's wing is the dumbest shit ever and I have no idea why Tocchet is doing this.  

 

If coaching wants Kuzmenko to have less minutes while he gets his conditioning up to snuff, that's fine, but why make Petey suffer for it?

 

Miller-Pettersson-Boeser (welcome back Lotto line)

Joshua-Bluegar-Garland

Mikheyev-Suter-Hoglander

Kuzmenko-Lafferty-PDG

 

Or something like that.  So - if it truly is an issue of getting Kuzmenko's fitness back, then fine, but atleast give Petey some good line mates. 

[DeltaSwede]

4 minutes ago, theochar said:

Players turn into to coaches that want players like they used to be, this happens in any sport the examples are endless.

 

Tocchet was a essentially a thug that happened to have really good hands and scored a lot of goals. He told a story when he was traded to Pittsburgh that he kept dumping the puck in and chasing it, Mario told him to cut that shit out we wasn't in Philly anymore. 

 

Rick likes grinders with good hands but this is not east to find so he is trying to instill some "grind" into the skilled players. It seems like a good plan skill guys are smart and talented so you just need an uptick in effort. Genius players like Gretzky and Maradona were shit coaches because no player could match what they were as players. Johan Cruyff was the exception but he flourished as team president and established a whole culture at Barcelona. Mourihno was a crappy defender and based his philosophy on parking the bus and winning but didn't win many fans etc etc.

 

So we get to a guy like Kuzmenko who's not really getting what Tocchet is trying to do. He is seeing Lafferty and Suter on Petey's line going WTF, I'm with Kuzzy on this one. Tocchet needs to move to the next level of asset management, Lafferty and Suter are disposable assets Kuzzy is not its really that simple. Its not like Kuzmenko is a diva hes got a great attitude and a joy for the game. He needs an arm around the shoulder instead of a kick up the arse its so obvious. Tocchet can afford to cut him some slack without "losing the room", plugs and grinders know they are plugs and grinders so wont get arsey if a skill guy gets a softer ride, its reflected in the salary. Sort it out!!!!!

 

 

Great post!

I'm not opposed to some tough love but there is that and then just poor management skills. It would ease my mind if it was a fitness or conditioning issue. You've got an offensive piece to coach, why not coach him to be that? 

[Jeremy Hronek]

1 minute ago, Nucker67 said:

I think some people here are a lot more upset than Kuzmenko. He's just happy to be in the NHL, Millstein says they have a plan, his agent isn't even concerned.  

 

But sure, let's start a Tocchet witch hunt if that makes you feel better.

 

Keep in mind, without Tocchet, this team would be bottom feeders again. 

 

Don't get me wrong bro, I'm a huge fan of Tocchet.  

 

I'm just upset with the way Kuz is being dicked around like a kid at Neverland Ranch.  

 

However - if the rumours are true that Kuzmenko's fitness wasn't up to par when the season began (and unlike Joshua, never got his way back into shape), then I take back everything I said.  

[BC_Hawk]

21 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Theres a few different ways to look at this… Kuzmenko never earned a top 6 spot, he was handed one, so yes maybe the coaches leash will be a little tighter on Kuzmenko over someone like Boeser. If there is a system/style of play that Tocchet wants to see from every player and Kuzmenko isnt buying in, he will sit. Until he learns to buy in. Now thats not saying Kuzmenko hasn’t bought in either, he is having to learn how to re-invent himself, squash old habits and implement new tools to his game that dont come naturally or as easy. So perhaps part of the reason of being in the pressbox is to get an overall view of how each and every line is playing and to focus on positioning in all 3 zones, what to do without the puck/with the puck or if hes the support man near the puck. He can also study the F1 and F2 forecheck and after watching it for a game or 2, he gets reinserted into the lineup in a bottom 6 role that is primarily about forecheck. Idk if this may be the plan/system they are using to build more of an all around game to Kuzmenko and he will find himself back in the top 6 with a little longer leash once they see that…

Ultimately you can see a difference in Boesers game much more than in Kuzmenko’s game.

But Boeser never got the treatment; he just got consistently placed in top6 with minimal effort. He by no means earned it or showed signs of improvement last year. To be honest, the Boeser we have seen the last 5 or so games looks the same way; lazy, no back check, minimal effort in the boards, floating.....

[nux_win]

Canucks "fans" treatment of Tocchet is starting to get upsetting.  We finally have a winning team and certain people can only focus on a certain player not getting enough ice time to suit their needs.  And we don't even know if the player in question is upset about it himself.  It sure seems like he isn't, just the so-called fans who think they know how to manage an NHL team better than the experts.  Chill out people.  Enjoy the wins.  Or would you rather have more to complain about?  Go Canucks Go!

[theochar]

2 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

I'm just upset with the way Kuz is being dicked around like a kid at Neverland Ranch.  

 

 

OMG that made me spit out my coffee!!!!!!

[BC_Hawk]

8 minutes ago, Nucker67 said:

I think some people here are a lot more upset than Kuzmenko. He's just happy to be in the NHL, Millstein says they have a plan, his agent isn't even concerned.  

 

But sure, let's start a Tocchet witch hunt if that makes you feel better.

 

Keep in mind, without Tocchet, this team would be bottom feeders again. 

Is he though? He doesn't seem like the type that would enjoy sitting in pressbox and not playing. In addition, his demeanor this year with the benchings is significantly different than the jovial version we saw last year. Not everyone pouts like Miller when they are not happy.

[Jeremy Hronek]

5 minutes ago, nux_win said:

Canucks "fans" treatment of Tocchet is starting to get upsetting.  We finally have a winning team and certain people can only focus on a certain player not getting enough ice time to suit their needs.  And we don't even know if the player in question is upset about it himself.  It sure seems like he isn't, just the so-called fans who think they know how to manage an NHL team better than the experts.  Chill out people.  Enjoy the wins.  Or would you rather have more to complain about?  Go Canucks Go!

 

Kuzmenko looked like he almost teared up after being interviewed that one night when he was named first star.  Of course he's upset over what's going on.

 

I also prefaced my original by stating that I'm a huge fan of Tocchet's work.    

 

So, what are we arguing about?  

[BC_Hawk]

5 minutes ago, nux_win said:

Canucks "fans" treatment of Tocchet is starting to get upsetting.  We finally have a winning team and certain people can only focus on a certain player not getting enough ice time to suit their needs.  And we don't even know if the player in question is upset about it himself.  It sure seems like he isn't, just the so-called fans who think they know how to manage an NHL team better than the experts.  Chill out people.  Enjoy the wins.  Or would you rather have more to complain about?  Go Canucks Go!

I don't see the "fans" treating Tocchet bad or getting upset. Engaged fans just wonder why we have Karsson and Aman both in the lineup in a game where we lacked offense. Petterson has looked great the last few games with Kuz playing; offense from him was invisible last night.

 

Tocchet has done a great job....people are just stating that this is poor asset management with Kuzmenko. Play him or trade him for a piece that will be used.

[Nucker67]

1 minute ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

Kuzmenko looked like he almost teared up after being interviewed that one night when he was named first star.  Of course he's upset over what's going on.

 

I also prefaced my original by stating that I'm a huge fan of Tocchet's work.    

 

So, what are we arguing about?  

 

Maybe it's the giggles and laughing at the seriousness that has Tocchet annoyed. Kuzy is a very likeable guy, but he needs to get serious and work. 

 

My hope is that come playoffs, and assuming the Canucks get in, Kuzmenko will be the X-factor and score some clutch goals for them. 

[Hammertime]

Just needs more produce to produce.