Hamas attacking Israel

[Super19]

5 months in. 

 

 

[Bob Long]

32 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Chants that Zionists say proudly too.

 

What is Zionism to you, that makes you defend it to tooth and nail in the face of all the terror it is showing its capable of. 

 

I'm not defending anything tooth and nail.

[Ilunga]

21 hours ago, JIAHN said:

I am with you brother........110 %

 

I caught a clip of Musk, saying there will always be war, as well as hate......he is a smart guy, if not a little unethical.......an interesting man, that should be arrested for treason

 

But there are so many reasons to hate, greed, selfishness, power, women, gold, land, grain., fear! ......and the list goes on, and on

 

It sickens me, but I am a realist (You would not know it on here! LOL)......

 

IMO, Israel is leveling Hamas, and Palestine, and will teach them to never do this again.....a beaten dog hates, but cowers.......from their perspective, I don't blame them

From the common Palestinian perspective, I cry for them, and understand the hate

 

Again, IMO, Israel wants the masses to turn on them (Hamas) and then pray for ever lasting peace

 

Maybe someday? 

 

 

 

 

 

I have been thinking about this post in regards to your comment about a dog.

 

I am a dog lover.

One of the dogs that owned our family was a victim of some serious abuse.

I am reasonably certain it had been beaten and I can tell you this, she did not have any hate in her heart. 

 

 

I know I am being pedantic however as I stated, I am a dog lover.

 

To compare an animal that will give you unconditional love to the worst examples of our species ?

 

I have always felt that this is doing a great disservice to man's and woman's best friend.

 

[Ilunga]

Literally watching right now an ABC -Aus- news report, the reporter is in the West Bank interviewing a mayor of a Palestinian village.

 

He takes the reporter to what looks like the villages olive groves.

Almost immediately a couple of settlers rock up on a four wheeler with machine guns and threaten the group.

Within a few minutes Israeli soldiers rock up and " advise " them all to leave. 

 

How would all of you like to live in conditions like this ? 

 

To bad the only " flawed democracy" - and that's what it is, check the world ranking for democracies - in the middle east.

Doesn't allow people whose land they occupy much freedom.

 

Surely that's the definition of persecution, all captured on film.

 

 

[RomanPer]

7 hours ago, Super19 said:

Jewish voices are being suppressed as it doesn't conform to Zionism. 

 

Please don’t speak of Jewish voices. We will figure it our ourselves, without antisemitic input.

[Canuck Surfer]

6 hours ago, Super19 said:

What do you think Zionism

 

Zionism at its roots, is designed, to be a safe home for the Jewish people in the homeland of its historic ancestors.

 

Not terribly different than Palestinians.

[Canuck Surfer]

7 hours ago, Super19 said:

Chants that Zionists say proudly too.

 

What is Zionism to you, that makes you defend it to tooth and nail in the face of all the terror it is showing its capable of. 

 

I have a challenge you have backed away from several times?  Albeit suggesting mentioned not happy with Hamas, looking for a home for Palestinians. What can Palestinians do to offer peace to the region, instill support for a nation for themselves?

 

How do Palestinians, if they are not Hamas?  Separate themselves from ISIS, the Muslim Brotherhood, RSF, Houthis (who I think you are nuts posting their efforts as positive), Taliban, PKK, Boko Haram, PLO, Wagner, Iranian National Guard, ISIL/IS, FRELIMO / RENAMO, Al Qaeda, Seleka, al-Shabaab, Gaddafi, etc., etc., etc.? Separate themselves from extremist Zionists! Separate themselves from Hamas?

 

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Zionism is not exactly what some people believe it is?

 

 

Einstein was a prominent supporter of both Labor Zionism and efforts to encourage Jewish–Arab cooperation.^[24] In 1938 Einstein explained "In this hour one thing, above all, must be emphasized: Judaism owes a great debt of gratitude to Zionism. The Zionist movement has revived among Jews the sense of community. It has performed productive work surpassing all the expectations any one could entertain. This productive work in Palestine, to which self-sacrificing Jews throughout the world have contributed has saved a large number of our brethren from direst need".^[25] Einstein supported the creation of a Jewish national homeland in the British mandate of Palestine but was opposed to the idea of a Jewish state "with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power."^[26]: 33 According to Marc Elis, Einstein declared himself a human being, a Jew, an opponent of nationalism, and a Zionist; he supported the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine but until summer 1947 conceived of this as a bi-national (Jewish and Arab) state, with "continuously functioning, mixed, administrative, economic, and social organizations."^[27][28]

Long before the emergence of Hitler I made the cause of Zionism mine because through it I saw a means of correcting a flagrant wrong....The Jewish people alone has for centuries been in the anomalous position of being victimized and hounded as a people, though bereft of all the rights and protections which even the smallest people normally has...Zionism offered the means of ending this discrimination. Through the return to the land to which they were bound by close historic ties...Jews sought to abolish their pariah status among peoples... The advent of Hitler underscored with a savage logic all the disastrous implications contained in the abnormal situation in which Jews found themselves. Millions of Jews perished... because there was no spot on the globe where they could find sanctuary...The Jewish survivors demand the right to dwell amid brothers, on the ancient soil of their fathers." —Letter to Jawaharlal Nehru, Prime Minister of India, June 13, 1947^[29]

Albert Einstein, seen here with his wife Elsa Einstein and Zionist leaders, including future President of Israel Chaim Weizmann, his wife Dr. Vera Weizmann, Menahem Ussishkin, and Ben-Zion Mossinson on arrival in New York City in 1921

His speeches and lectures about Zionism were published in 1931 by The Macmillan Company^[30] and eleven of these essays were collected in a 1933 book entitled Mein Weltbild and translated into English as The World as I See It; Einstein's foreword dedicates the collection "to the Jews of Germany".^[31] In the face of Germany's rising militarism, Einstein wrote and spoke for peace.^[32][33]

Einstein publicly stated reservations about the proposal to partition the British mandate of Palestine into independent Arab and Jewish countries. In a 1938 speech, "Our Debt to Zionism", he said:

I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state. My awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain—especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state. ... If external necessity should after all compel us to assume this burden, let us bear it with tact and patience.^[34]

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Zionism is not exactly what some people believe it is?

 

 

Einstein was a prominent supporter of both Labor Zionism and efforts to encourage Jewish–Arab cooperation.^[24] In 1938 Einstein explained "In this hour one thing, above all, must be emphasized: Judaism owes a great debt of gratitude to Zionism. The Zionist movement has revived among Jews the sense of community. It has performed productive work surpassing all the expectations any one could entertain. This productive work in Palestine, to which self-sacrificing Jews throughout the world have contributed has saved a large number of our brethren from direst need".^[25] Einstein supported the creation of a Jewish national homeland in the British mandate of Palestine but was opposed to the idea of a Jewish state "with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power."^[26]: 33 According to Marc Elis, Einstein declared himself a human being, a Jew, an opponent of nationalism, and a Zionist; he supported the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine but until summer 1947 conceived of this as a bi-national (Jewish and Arab) state, with "continuously functioning, mixed, administrative, economic, and social organizations."^[27][28]

Long before the emergence of Hitler I made the cause of Zionism mine because through it I saw a means of correcting a flagrant wrong....The Jewish people alone has for centuries been in the anomalous position of being victimized and hounded as a people, though bereft of all the rights and protections which even the smallest people normally has...Zionism offered the means of ending this discrimination. Through the return to the land to which they were bound by close historic ties...Jews sought to abolish their pariah status among peoples... The advent of Hitler underscored with a savage logic all the disastrous implications contained in the abnormal situation in which Jews found themselves. Millions of Jews perished... because there was no spot on the globe where they could find sanctuary...The Jewish survivors demand the right to dwell amid brothers, on the ancient soil of their fathers." —Letter to Jawaharlal Nehru, Prime Minister of India, June 13, 1947^[29]

Albert Einstein, seen here with his wife Elsa Einstein and Zionist leaders, including future President of Israel Chaim Weizmann, his wife Dr. Vera Weizmann, Menahem Ussishkin, and Ben-Zion Mossinson on arrival in New York City in 1921

His speeches and lectures about Zionism were published in 1931 by The Macmillan Company^[30] and eleven of these essays were collected in a 1933 book entitled Mein Weltbild and translated into English as The World as I See It; Einstein's foreword dedicates the collection "to the Jews of Germany".^[31] In the face of Germany's rising militarism, Einstein wrote and spoke for peace.^[32][33]

Einstein publicly stated reservations about the proposal to partition the British mandate of Palestine into independent Arab and Jewish countries. In a 1938 speech, "Our Debt to Zionism", he said:

I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state. My awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain—especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state. ... If external necessity should after all compel us to assume this burden, let us bear it with tact and patience.^[34]

 

good post, it shows the complexity of the concept. Sorry @Super19 you can't just throw the word around in such a simplistic fashion to push your preferred narrative. 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Ilunga]

Road to Recovery 

 

Israelis volunteers helping sick Palestinians by driving them from the West Bank and Gaza to hospitals in Israel 

 

https://thewire.in/health/israel-palestine-health

 

" " Indifference drives me mad " said Arnon Rothbart, 51, a lawyer in Tel Aviv and a fellow road to recovery volunteer. He wishes the Israeli public would give more thought to the living conditions of the Palestinians, they need more help when we met in his office. They can value the good will of Israelis to show compassion and empathy and they can spread it around them. "

The founder of this organisation Yuval Roth 

 

" The 60 year old white haired Israeli is a semi retired maker of stilts for performance artists, a former of juggler who taught generations of Israeli jugglers and son to a holocaust survivor father. In 1993 he lost his brother Udi, who was kidnapped and shot by a Hamas unit on his way back from home from a reserves service in Gaza. Roths reaction was to join the Parents Circle - Family Forum a joint group of bereaved Israelis and Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza. They can share their pain and discuss ways to improve the situation. " 

 

" Some people have never met nice Israelis like our members. Some of them have just met soldiers and Shabak security service - only threatening Israelis. One mother came back from her first ride and couldn't believe it. These are Jews? The driver spoke arabic and bought sweets for the kids. 

 

I told her that there are many Jews some good and some are bad, it is the situation that has caused them to be bad. In a different situation we would have met and become friends. "

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Cold]

I’m superficially educated in this conflict, I won’t pretend otherwise.

 

Brass Tacks

 

Israel

 

- As a small nation surrounded by countries that; at best strongly dislike them, to at worst are actively working to wipe them out, have to, out necessity, be ruthless in the face of all attacks on their country. History has shown the Israeli people that genocide is a tangible threat.

- This can lead to overreach in their response, especially with how it affects civilians.

- They are the only nuclear country in the Middle East, and use this as a bargaining chip with the West, specifically the U.S., to receive the most modern armaments, planes, etc. available. Additionally, they have a strong technology base, with the ability to design and build cutting edge systems themselves.

- The settler movement, strongly supported by the nationalists, has created an extreme level of turmoil and suffering in the Palestinian Territories, directly leading to radicalization of a significant percentage of their population. This has created fertile ground for foreign countries and organizations to exploit.

- the sea blockade of the Palestinian Territories, adds to this pain 

- The actual desire by the Israeli government to figure out a 2 state solution is dubious at best.

 

Palestinians

 

- Feel a strong resentment against the way Israel was created, exacerbated by Israel’s refusal to return property and territory after wars, starting with the 1948 Arab- Israel war. Leading to the Palestinian refugee problem.
- historically has had strong support from both neighbouring countries and organizations, leading to continuous proxy wars and skirmishes.

- see the settler movement as a continuation of a policy of Annexation 

- live under oppression in the occupied territories.

- have a strong radical element, strongly influenced by Israeli policy

 

possible end games

 

 

The 2 state solution (highly unlikely)

 

- It would require Israel to remove established settlements and perhaps cede some additional territory 

- would require a strong reversal of Palestinian sentiment with regards to Israel

- would require enormous amounts of outside aid to rebuild a functioning society, including the overturning of Hammas from government 

 

Single state solution 

 

- Also highly unlikely, as the it would be nearly impossible to incorporate the Palestinian peoples into a single state with Israel

- possible if Israel displaces the majority of Palestinians from the territory. 

Status Quo

 

- the most likely outcome, with some form of cease fire

- not a permanent solution as Israel seems to have no intention of stopping continued settlement and Palestinians have no reason to stop violently responding. 
 

So what am I missing?

what other options make sense?

 

[Canuck Surfer]

17 hours ago, Cold said:

Israel seems to have no intention of stopping continued settlement and Palestinians have no reason to stop violently responding. 

 

Missing a lot if this is your best summary?

[Canuck Surfer]

 

Biased, for sure.

 

Not many items which are not fact based regardless.

[Super19]

On 2/18/2024 at 1:26 AM, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Zionism at its roots, is designed, to be a safe home for the Jewish people in the homeland of its historic ancestors.

 

Not terribly different than Palestinians.

Perhaps a design flaw, as according to Israelis they are not safe as they say everyone around them is trying to kill them.

 

Perhaps acknowledging the Palestinian state and ceasing the extreme Zionism will be a better design for safety for Jews and all.

 

I mean the Zionism in action right now has amounted to over 30k KILLED - 70% women and children. It's also leading to an offensive from Yemen and Hezbollah which seems to be escalating.

[Cold]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Missing a lot if this is your best summary?

Not my best summary, but definitely my most simplified.

 

Yes, there are multitudes of extenuating factors, but historically this conflict, in my opinion, comes down to land and security.

 

If the Israelis want to stop Palestinian radicalization, the first step is to stop taking their territory.

The second step is to create a path forward for the Palestinians. An example would be the way Japan was treated after WW2, vs. The way Germany was treated after WW1. There has to be a path forward.

 

I’m not solely putting the blame on Israel. They have had to defend themselves from their neighbours on a constant basis since day one. They have been on war footing continuously for over 70 years. That hardly leads to a charitable mindset. 
 

But their current settlement activities are a major factor in this particular conflict.

[RomanPer]

6 hours ago, Super19 said:

Perhaps a design flaw, as according to Israelis they are not safe as they say everyone around them is trying to kill them.

 

Perhaps acknowledging the Palestinian state and ceasing the extreme Zionism will be a better design for safety for Jews and all.

 

I mean the Zionism in action right now has amounted to over 30k KILLED - 70% women and children. It's also leading to an offensive from Yemen and Hezbollah which seems to be escalating.

 

It's not "Zionism", it's protection against terrorism. The reason for civilian casualties is the terrorists hiding within civilian population. You are clearly mixing things up into one bucket.

[Taxi]

6 hours ago, Super19 said:

Perhaps a design flaw, as according to Israelis they are not safe as they say everyone around them is trying to kill them.

 

Perhaps acknowledging the Palestinian state and ceasing the extreme Zionism will be a better design for safety for Jews and all.

 

I mean the Zionism in action right now has amounted to over 30k KILLED - 70% women and children. It's also leading to an offensive from Yemen and Hezbollah which seems to be escalating.

 

They withdrew all Jews from Gaza, how did that work out for them in terms of Gaza becoming safer for Israelis?

[Optimist Prime]

7 hours ago, Cold said:

But their current settlement activities are a major factor in this particular conflict.

Yet it was Gaza and Hamas that attacked Israel on Oct 7th, and not the palestian people of the West Bank. Funny huh?>

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

The reason for civilian casualties is the terrorists hiding within civilian population.

I have said this from oct 8th till this very minute: if the Jihadi extremist forces in Gaza surrendered yesterday, there would be no more bombing of Gaza today. This very minute civilian lives could be saved if Sinwar and his forces surrendered this very second. 

[Super19]

6 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

They withdrew all Jews from Gaza, how did that work out for them in terms of Gaza becoming safer for Israelis?

Gaza is an 'open air prison'. Gaza is a "concentration camp". Former Israeli officials have said as much.

 

Would you be okay with Jews living in Gaza being treated the same way as the Palestinians are treated?

 

[Bob Long]

6 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Gaza is an 'open air prison'. Gaza is a "concentration camp". Former Israeli officials have said as much.

 

Would you be okay with Jews living in Gaza being treated the same way as the Palestinians are treated?

 

 

A prison with beach front property.