Fighting In NHL - POLL

[Steamer4GM]

A fair bit of back and forth between some members in the GDT prior to puck drop in tonight's clinic the Canucks gave us all at St Louis' expense.

 

I suggested those voicing opposing views start a poll thread but see neither did and I'm actually very interested in where the numbers will fall here.

So, very simple, no need to discuss and debate to death (unless ya really wanna) as the conversation has been had hundreds of times. 

 

Feel free to suggest some more or less extreme poll options if I've missed any that might represent your own stance on the issue

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

May I suggest an option between the 3rd and 4th options of:

"Who needs fighting when players can just hug and dance and pretend they're fighting?"

[IBatch]

There is a reason why Vegas owner, and GM went with a roster of 18 CAN, and I think two US players.    Love the skill added by scouring the world for the best players.   But am not a fan of European hockey compared to NHL hockey.   It's already close enough.   Take fighting completely out of it, might as well start watching women's hockey.   Give the guys full cages etc. 

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

May I suggest an option between the 3rd and 4th options of:

"Who needs fighting when players can just hug and dance and pretend they're fighting?"

Pretty sure that's been the game for almost a decade now.  

[IBatch]

Resounding no from me.  It for sure went too far in the mid-late  90's, when actual goons started to make the NHL, and even stupider in the 2000's with 250-270lb guys that without fighting ability would never get a chance ,   Twist etc  started the arms race, as did expansion in the early 90's, and the instigator penalty (prior to that there was no "team pride " drop the puck BS crap, it was dealt with right then and there)... Parker , Worrell  or so many others later.   Actual enforcers, could play the game too.  

 

Brashear, Domi, Laraque, Probert, Williams, Hunter, Manson, McSorely  so many of those guys could actually play a solid fourth line or even middle six, top four without hurting their team.   Manson was a two time all-star, Probert once, and that was before each team had to send someone (sorry Horvat, you wouldn't have gone under the real format).  Guys like Wendel Clark and Tochett, Kevin Steven's could play the game much better and fight.    Corson.  Roberts.   Shanny.   Howe, Gillies,  Messier.   Robinson.   Neely.    Fraser.  Dozens and dozens of guys really.  It's very tragic things went so far the other way (staged fights and team pride, instigator penalty), that the league wasn't properly protecting their players.    The guys who were hired to protect their teammates. 

 

Organic fights like Iginla's were and always will be part of the game.   I won't stop watching if it's banned but it will be a dark day if and when it's added.    Freaking snowflakes.    The golden era of hockey (1970-1995) isn't called that for no reason.   It was actually to around 2001-2002 IMO.  Avs and Detroit kept it going.   Anyone who was around for that rivalry at least got to see what one actually looks like.    Battle of Alberta were much watch games no matter who your favourite team was.   Boston and MTL in the 70's.   PHI versus everyone else.   Habs and Nords.    The best rivalry we've ever had was VAN-CAL.   1989-1996 or so.   We replaced EDM after their dynasty moved elsewhere.   Even VAN-WNP was something.     Makes the VAN/CHI one look very very tame (and it was awesome too).  

 

Edit: Iginla really the last power forward the leagues had.   Benn kind of and maybe Wilson... but a dying breed.   Leagues so tame now.   Hockey's great, but it's already seen its best days.   With 32 teams we won't ever see the type of rivalry's we used to have again.  

Edited October 28, 2023 by IBatch

[tas]

I voted for "remove at all cost" but that doesn't really describe my view. 

 

it's something that had a purpose historically, but shouldn't have. there never should have been a need for it. adults teach their children to settle their differences with words rather than resorting to violence. adults teach their children that sportsmanship is important. adults are hypocrites. 

 

the league and referees have a role to play, because the culture around the sport has always included the concept of 'just letting them play', players policing themselves as much as possible within reason, answering to The Code. referees need to call an honest game and the league needs to harshly punish predatory plays, provide a disciplinary deterrent that hurts worse than a fist in the face.

 

from the '90s until early 2010s, I liked a hockey fight as much as the next guy. gino, tim hunter, shawn antoski, scottie walker, brash, mayday, bert, jovo, juice, ryp, I loved them all.

 

by the time we got to darcy hordichuk, I no longer appreciated the goon, the enforcer, staged fights, but i still appreciated an honest, organic fight between guys who could play. but with everything we've learned, throughout the 2010s in particular, it just made it harder and harder to watch as time has gone on. at some point along the way, I was forced to evaluate why I found two men punching each other in the face entertaining and recognized it as a character defect within myself and decided to fix it. 

 

luckily the players seem to recognize it too. fights have been trending up a little bit the last couple years after steady decline for a long time, and that's an interesting thing to pay attention to and analyze, but on the whole it seems like fewer and fewer of these athletes are inclined to want to hurt one another. it's not only less fighting we've seen over time, but fewer dirty plays. things are taking care of themselves. by the time the league bans fighting (I wouldn't be shocked if it's within the next decade), it will have more or less weeded itself out already. 

 

it may take away from the physicality and excitement of watching the game, but these guys are human beings first, athletes second, and entertainers last, and exercising some empathy, humanity and compassion will serve to improve everyone. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by tas

[DeltaSwede]

It for sure has it's place in policing the game. You're not allowed to fight already, it's a 5 min major.

I'm far from a violent person, not interested in boxing or MMA, call my friends who are cavemen. I mean might as well give you a rock and let you live in a cave at this point - HOWEVER, fighting in hockey is something different to me. It serves a different purpose and I wouldn't call it the same type of violence. Much like laws and police exist to eliminate the need for a victim to take their own revenge (i.e increase the stakes of the conflict), fighting in hockey serves a purpose for that same reason. It presents an "eye for an eye" solution that is a much safer option than returning the favor with a two-zone charge in the numbers of the guy who got your guy on the chin. 

 

Hockey has the potential to be a super violent affair. The speed, no out of bounds, everything around you is rock hard. Without a real deterring factor, I think it would move in the opposite direction of what those who propose banning fighting wants it to go. I would even dare to call it a natural development within the game of hockey. A necessary balancing factor. 

Over in Europe we do the 5 minutes + a game misconduct. The team I follow has been down in the 2nd league for like 7-8 years and just got promoted to the SHL so I haven't really followed how the SHL has changed over the years. There has been quite a bit of headhunting going on these past years from what I've heard and now I am really noticing it following the league much closer. Players in the SHL are free to lay predatory hits and settle for a suspension. If they respond, well the product suffers, we got 1-2 players from each team heading to the locker rooms and/or one guy out on a stretcher. There's also quite a bit of the gloves on, roughing some guy after the whistle that's just really lame and pathetic. Reminds me of the infamous Alex Semin fight. So the players obviously would have liked to have the option to drop the gloves and play the next period. 

Let the players play. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by DeltaSwede

[AlwaysACanuckFan]

6 hours ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

May I suggest an option between the 3rd and 4th options of:

"Who needs fighting when players can just hug and dance and pretend they're fighting?"

Fighting to the sounds of I wanna dance with somebody 

[AlwaysACanuckFan]

You'll never see fighting like this anymore. The enforcers in today's game is gone

[Wilbur]

For me, I accept it as part of the game, but it can be a very minor part of the game for all I care.  While I don't press 'jump' on the PVR button, I will distract myself with something else and half-watch until play resumes.

[stawns]

Personal opinions don't matter on this topic.  I love a good fight and have 40 or 50 (at least) on my card, but it's a moot point as it's not a part of the game anymore.  It's dangerous and irrelevant 

[Heretic]

IMHO, the penalty isn't severe enough.

In other sports, you fight, you are tossed for the game.

Yeah, I know, if that happened in the NHL, guys would wait until the last 5 minutes to fight...
Maybe make it a 10 minute penalty - that would stop the staged ones and our stars would think twice before fighting.

 

[The Social Hermit]

Hockey is the only major sport that allows fighting. It’s also the only major sport that has a significant number of young players accused of rape. The culture has to change and getting rid of fighting is a part of that change.

 

and anyone who says you might as well watch women’s hockey if they ban fighting, hasn’t watched women’s hockey - it’s excellent! Not to mention, slagging women’s hockey is also part of the culture that needs to change.

 

[6of1_halfdozenofother]

1 hour ago, AlwaysACanuckFan said:

Fighting to the sounds of I wanna dance with somebody 

 

Or something overtly raunchy/sexy to set the mood.  

[Mikeyman109]

1 hour ago, The Social Hermit said:

Hockey is the only major sport that allows fighting. It’s also the only major sport that has a significant number of young players accused of rape. The culture has to change and getting rid of fighting is a part of that change.

 

and anyone who says you might as well watch women’s hockey if they ban fighting, hasn’t watched women’s hockey - it’s excellent! Not to mention, slagging women’s hockey is also part of the culture that needs to change.

 

My guess is you havent seen much baseball lately. LOL

Fighting still has a place because the alternative is revenge plays, stick fouls and cheap shots. I am sure no one wants to see Hughes or Petey injured because one of our third liners hit another teams star. Its an emotional game and fights do sometimes happen due to that. You dont have to watch the fight or even like it but its still an important part of the game. Maybe lesser part than before but still a part.

 

as for womens hockey the disparaging comments are a bad part of the hockey culture for sure. I am not against them having their own league. As long as its financially independent why wouldnt we want the game promoted. I find the games slow in comparison. And really there is not enough star players to go around. Maybe they just need to develop. at the Olympic level i watch because its my country being represented but i am not turning in to watch Sweden and Japan. No disrespect to them .

[Kevin Biestra]

 

1 hour ago, The Social Hermit said:

Hockey is the only major sport that allows fighting. It’s also the only major sport that has a significant number of young players accused of rape. The culture has to change and getting rid of fighting is a part of that change.

 

and anyone who says you might as well watch women’s hockey if they ban fighting, hasn’t watched women’s hockey - it’s excellent! Not to mention, slagging women’s hockey is also part of the culture that needs to change.

 

 

 

I watch and respect women's hockey when there is something at stake like world championships or Olympics or national pride and so on.  But at the same time it is one of the sports that slows down the most under those circumstances and pretending otherwise is just playing make believe.

[The Social Hermit]

12 minutes ago, Mikeyman109 said:

My guess is you havent seen much baseball lately. LOL

Fighting still has a place because the alternative is revenge plays, stick fouls and cheap shots. I am sure no one wants to see Hughes or Petey injured because one of our third liners hit another teams star. Its an emotional game and fights do sometimes happen due to that. You dont have to watch the fight or even like it but its still an important part of the game. Maybe lesser part than before but still a part.

 

as for womens hockey the disparaging comments are a bad part of the hockey culture for sure. I am not against them having their own league. As long as its financially independent why wouldnt we want the game promoted. I find the games slow in comparison. And really there is not enough star players to go around. Maybe they just need to develop. at the Olympic level i watch because its my country being represented but i am not turning in to watch Sweden and Japan. No disrespect to them .

The alternative to fighting doesn’t have to be revenge plays, again, part of the culture problem. The alternative can be a league that cares about the players and protects them. Perhaps automatic suspension for offending player, and coach as well.

Regarding women’s hockey, how kind of you to not be against them having their own league - more of hockeys outdated misogynistic culture. And you may not mean to, but you are disrespecting women’s hockey

[The Social Hermit]

15 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

 

 

I watch and respect women's hockey when there is something at stake like world championships or Olympics or national pride and so on.  But at the same time it is one of the sports that slows down the most under those circumstances and pretending otherwise is just playing make believe.

I don’t believe you respect women’s hockey. You, perhaps, respect the Olympics and world championships, but you do not respect women’s hockey. 

[Kevin Biestra]

38 minutes ago, The Social Hermit said:

I don’t believe you respect women’s hockey. You, perhaps, respect the Olympics and world championships, but you do not respect women’s hockey. 

 

How the hell would you even know if I do.  Respecting it doesn't mean playing make believe about it.  I respect amateur boxing but also am well aware of the differences between amateur boxing and pro boxing and you better believe that amateur and professional boxers and trainers are extremely aware of the differences.

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Kevin Biestra

[Gawdzukes]

I will state my view although I'm not sure others will agree.

 

The way I see it fighting in being pushed out of hockey simply because the coaches and players are smarter then in the past and realized it's a stupid practice and strategy. Back in the 70's, and 80's the teams were filled with big tough guys and fights were a big part of the game. As such good players and small players got roped into fighting all the time and sometimes the game itself was lost amongst the fisticuffs and the game itself just turned into a big fight card.

 

Fast forward 20 years and kids were watching utube videos and practicing the Michigan, deking around pucks ala Patty Kane, skating like Quinn Hughes, and practicing shooting like Petterson. Now instead of having to fill your line-up with big dumb oafs who couldn't contribute in the playoffs all of the sudden you had your pick of 100's of tough (enough) young kids who could skate, hit, and score from time to time available to fill out your fourth line, Instead of total plugs like Boogard, Colton Orr, Jay Caufield, and Steve McIntyre.

 

Combine that with the simple intellect and inner strength of (actual) players to simply say no to a fight and all of the sudden it becomes an absolutely useless tool. Add to that by playing a hard but clean game and nobody has any reason to come at you looking for a fight. Sports evolve like the increased 3 point shots in basketball, and Quarterbacks running more and more in football, and the wildcat offence. In hockey all you have to do is not waste your time and energy on a pointless fight that may leave your team at a disadvantage. No NHL rule you have to fight and now the stigma that you have to fight has become obsolete.

 

Fighting serves it's purpose in hockey as a way to keep players honest and to really scrap it out if two players are thus inclined. It's being handled better than it ever has in the history of the game in my opinion. Keep it in the game but it's a minor aspect that totally disappears when the real season (playoffs) begin.

 

Everyone has also realized that that the idea fighting is a deterrent is stupid. No one cares about that if they're smart. You simply don't have to fight. I'd be way more worried about someone cheap shotting me and ruining my knee than some goon asking me if I want to fight, or jumping me and putting us on a 5 minute power play. People just plain wised up to this dumb tactic.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Gawdzukes

[Mando27]

I'm on the fence, I don't mind it because the reffing is so bad you almost need players to police the game. On the other hand if the NHL cleaned up it's act and actually improved the reffing I wouldn't be bothered if it went away.

[Goal_thecup]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Resounding no from me.  It for sure went too far in the mid-late  90's, when actual goons started to make the NHL, and even stupider in the 2000's with 250-270lb guys that without fighting ability would never get a chance ,   Twist etc  started the arms race, as did expansion in the early 90's, and the instigator penalty (prior to that there was no "team pride " drop the puck BS crap, it was dealt with right then and there)... Parker , Worrell  or so many others later.   Actual enforcers, could play the game too.  

 

Brashear, Domi, Laraque, Probert, Williams, Hunter, Manson, McSorely  so many of those guys could actually play a solid fourth line or even middle six, top four without hurting their team.   Manson was a two time all-star, Probert once, and that was before each team had to send someone (sorry Horvat, you wouldn't have gone under the real format).  Guys like Wendel Clark and Tochett, Kevin Steven's could play the game much better and fight.    Corson.  Roberts.   Shanny.   Howe, Gillies,  Messier.   Robinson.   Neely.    Fraser.  Dozens and dozens of guys really.  It's very tragic things went so far the other way (staged fights and team pride, instigator penalty), that the league wasn't properly protecting their players.    The guys who were hired to protect their teammates. 

 

Organic fights like Iginla's were and always will be part of the game.   I won't stop watching if it's banned but it will be a dark day if and when it's added.    Freaking snowflakes.    The golden era of hockey (1970-1995) isn't called that for no reason.   It was actually to around 2001-2002 IMO.  Avs and Detroit kept it going.   Anyone who was around for that rivalry at least got to see what one actually looks like.    Battle of Alberta were much watch games no matter who your favourite team was.   Boston and MTL in the 70's.   PHI versus everyone else.   Habs and Nords.    The best rivalry we've ever had was VAN-CAL.   1989-1996 or so.   We replaced EDM after their dynasty moved elsewhere.   Even VAN-WNP was something.     Makes the VAN/CHI one look very very tame (and it was awesome too).  

 

Edit: Iginla really the last power forward the leagues had.   Benn kind of and maybe Wilson... but a dying breed.   Leagues so tame now.   Hockey's great, but it's already seen its best days.   With 32 teams we won't ever see the type of rivalry's we used to have again.  

Good stuff. 

Regarding the underlined above:

The very old NHL Van/Chi rivalry was great; we always seemed to meet them in the playoffs, and it was WAR every single time.

[Petey the Puck Whisperer]

Some people need to grow a set and realize the hockey players don't share your safe space.

[Goal_thecup]

10 hours ago, Steamer4GM said:

Feel free to suggest some more or less extreme poll options if I've missed any that might represent your own stance on the issue

I had a bit of trouble deciding between 2 and 3.

Eventually had to go with 2: Definitely has its place.

 

What is it about 'staged fights' that people find ridiculous?

Seriously, I do not understand what is going on here; how do you define staged fights?

[Goal_thecup]

Just now, Petey the Puck Whisperer said:

Some people need to grow a set and realize the hockey players don't share your safe space.

Vintage!

Pro hockey is a very dangerous game.