[Proposal] Kuzmenko for Pesce (or something around these two pieces)

[Coconuts]

Not a reaction proposal, I was bandying this about yesterday afternoon in the Beauvillier thread. 

 

To Vancouver 

 

Brett Pesce, whose cap hit is a hair over 4M. 

 

To Carolina

 

Andrei Kuzmenko, who carries a 5.5M cap hit. 

 

The guts of this proposal 

 

Kuzmenko scored almost 40 goals last season and has a 5.5M cap hit, he hasn't been scoring like that this season but his production is recent enough that it could still sway teams to acquire him. I'm not entirely sold on the Canucks being a team that should be going all-in on this season, I think it's too early. But it's not too early to be looking towards next season by addressing what's probably our most obvious weakness, our D. 

 

His shooting percentage was bound to dip but he should probably be scoring more than he has thus far. I think he's an excellent trade chip that several teams could fit in. 

 

I'm generally not a fan of acquiring players in their late 20's and I'm still not entirely sold on him being the right fit, but a trade that could happen could be something alongside Kuzmenko for pending UFA Pesce. 

 

Carolina currently has the cap space to take on Kuzmenko's entire cap hit. 

 

Why do they do this? Well, they're an average scoring team despite their 7th ranked powerplay. They're 16th in goals scored. (edit: powerplay is 9th after last night, goals for is tied for 11th, so a bit above average now). A caveat to this is they've also been an uncharacteristically middling team defensively, but it could be they'd rather get something for Pesce. Kuzmenko would be an infusion of offense, he's capable of scoring goals even if he hasn't been, and he's still be productive having put up 14 points in 19 games thus far. That'd have him tied for third on Carolina's roster as of today. 

 

Any such deal would likely require an extension from Pesce but then you have a longer-term outlook of Hughes, Hronek, and Pesce with all other D on shorter term deals. If they want Hronek with Hughes they could certainly do worse. 

 

What are the caveats? 

 

Well, Kuzmenko has a modified NTC, it's a 12-team NTC. Hard to imagine Carolina would be on that list though considering they've widely been viewed as a contender the past couple seasons. They also have their own Russian in Svechnikov.

 

Pesce also has a a modified NTC, it's a 15-team NTC. But considering we've had a better start it's possible he may be interested in coming here if we offer him term and dollars that he likes.

 

Needless to say, either player being unwilling to go to the other team sinks this proposal but I think there's a chance both players would be receptive. 

 

Carolina may not be prepared to trade Pesce given they've been middling defensively, there's also a chance both teams come to terms and sign an extension. Carolina could view Pesce as their own rental, but I'm inclined to believe they'd rather not let him walk for nothing if they can get positive value for him. Kuzmenko is a top six winger at a reasonable cap hit and his term isn't long, gives them an injection of offense as well as cap flex going forward.

 

Pesce may not be interested in being a Canuck, we don't do this deal without an extension in place. 

 

Our scoring has taken a hit of late, and our secondary scoring is questionable, moving Kuzmenko may not help that. I'd argue that improved D could mitigate a loss of offense though. Moving Kuzmenko would also give a player like Hoglander or Garland a chance to step up. At the end of the day it's easier to find top six wingers than top 4RD. 

 

We might have to add a bit, Carolina might ask for more than just Kuzmenko. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Coconuts

[Coconuts]

I'd rather do something like this than overpay for one of Calgary's D. Pesce is also a better option than Peeke out of CBJ. 

[Master Mind]

My initial thought is that this would solve one issue while creating another.

 

Pesce would be nice to have, but our top six without Kuzmenko doesn't look strong enough. Likely means both Beauvillier and Di Giuseppe are in the top 6 the rest of the year. Or Garland, but moving him up hurts the 3rd line.

 

I don't think the Canes would do it with how deep they are at wing, and forward in general. They have Teravainen, Jarvis, Svechnikov, Necas, Martinook, Fast, Bunting, and Noesen. The difference between Kuzmenko and Noesen is likely less impactful than downgrading from Pesce to using both Chatfield/DeAngelo full time.

[Coconuts]

13 minutes ago, Master Mind said:

My initial thought is that this would solve one issue while creating another.

 

Pesce would be nice to have, but our top six without Kuzmenko doesn't look strong enough. Likely means both Beauvillier and Di Giuseppe are in the top 6 the rest of the year. Or Garland, but moving him up hurts the 3rd line.

 

I don't think the Canes would do it with how deep they are at wing, and forward in general. They have Teravainen, Jarvis, Svechnikov, Necas, Martinook, Fast, Bunting, and Noesen. The difference between Kuzmenko and Noesen is likely less impactful than downgrading from Pesce to using both Chatfield/DeAngelo full time.

 

They certainly look deep, absolutely. Your argument is a solid one. Carolina has lots of cap question marks coming too. 

 

Necas is due for a raise as an RFA, Teravainen likely will be too, pending UFA. Jarvis is another RFA who'll need a raise.

 

Pesce and Skjei are both pending UFA's. Noesen will be too, but he's more likely to come back down to earth imo. 

 

Not sure they can afford to keep them all. 

 

It does create another problem by hurting our forward depth, absolutely. But it's easier to move a contract with positive value than to move a Garland or Beauvillier imo. 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Coconuts

[R3aL]

I’m personally not a fan of acquiring an aging Pesce or Parayko

[Nucker67]

I'd love to have Pesce, and I believe he would be a lot more impactful in the postseason than Kuzmenko. Kuzmenko needs to play his game to be effective and he's not allowed to do that in Vancouver anymore. 

 

Hughes - Hronek

Cole - Pesce

Soucy - Myers

Bear

 

I like this a lot. ^^

 

 Canucks would have to make 1-2 more trades I think, get another Top 6 forward and maybe a bottom 6 forward with some truculence. Or maybe they should reward Hoglander.

 

Hoglander - Pettersson - Mikheyev

 

Hoglander and Petey are very good friends and they could click.

[Canuck You]

Boy we give up on our guys fast, Kuz stays! Not gonna get a perfect game every game.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Canuck You

[Coconuts]

1 minute ago, Canuck You said:

Boy we give up on our guys fast, Kuz stays! Not gonna get a perfect game every game.

 

Has nothing to do with giving up on guys, that's a lazy narrative. 

 

Kuzmenko has positive value, which is why a team might trade something good for him. Same goes for Boeser.

 

Gotta give to get. 

[Gurn]

15 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

Has nothing to do with giving up on guys, that's a lazy narrative. 

 

Kuzmenko has positive value, which is why a team might trade something good for him. Same goes for Boeser.

 

Gotta give to get. 

Some people just think we could trade coal for diamonds. I mean -they are both made of carbon, are they not?

 

[Ghostsof1915]

1 hour ago, Gurn said:

Some people just think we could trade coal for diamonds. I mean -they are both made of carbon, are they not?

 

That would at least explain why so many proposals are for our spare parts for top end players.....

[Miss Korea]

1 hour ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

That would at least explain why so many proposals are for our spare parts for top end players.....

Why give up Kuzy or Boeser when we have better players in... Garland and Beauvillier!??

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Miss Korea

[higgyfan]

4 hours ago, Coconuts said:

 

Has nothing to do with giving up on guys, that's a lazy narrative. 

 

Kuzmenko has positive value, which is why a team might trade something good for him. Same goes for Boeser.

 

Gotta give to get. 

 

It's a fair trade, but they both come with risks.  Pesce want to try UFA, or demand too much

money and term to sign.  Kuzy may have hit a wall with his game.  He is clearly struggling with

Tocc's demands for more defensive responsibilities, which may be a factor anywhere he goes

to play in the NHL. Or perhaps his performance is partially due to Pete's condition right now.

 

Pesce would be an awesome addition to the Canucks, but it leaves a ? for the top 6.  I'm not

thrilled at the idea of Gar/Beau/Hogs heading to the top 6; especially with Pete struggling

right now.

[Hammertime]

I'm with you. I'm not the hugest Kuzzi fan like Brock I love the human their both just great people. When they aren't scoring they don't contribute much beyond hugs and smiles.  

 

Pesce I worry will be too costly to re up, but we got Kuzz for free and as a rental Pesce costs a first. If we swap them Kuz instead I'm fine w it I like our 1st.

 

I see it this way it clears the cap we need if we let Pesce walk depending on price. Brock remains our top 6 PP guy, and paves the way for Lekkerimaki's future debut.

 

 

[luckylager]

I like the idea, but due to our lack of depth the Canucks aren't trading from a position of strength.

 

I'm enjoying watching the team win this year, and there are a few places they definitely improve, unfortunately I just don't think we're there yet. As master mind pointed out we're kinda plugging one hole by opening another. Kind of a wait and see era for me, right now. Too early to push...

[DownUndaCanuck]

I wonder if teams would be cautious about Kuzmenko, he's only had one good season and riding shotgun to Petey for most of it, now he's come back down to Earth I doubt teams would buy on him now, but he does have a nice cap-hit. Boeser on the other hand must have sky-high value after leading the league in scoring for a while. There's certainly a deal to be made with the Canucks and anyone else - winger for defenceman.

 

Boeser > Kuzmenko > Beauvillier > Garland

 

On defence, I wonder if it's something like:

 

Hanifin > Pesce > Skeij > Zadorov > Tanev

 

I'd take Boeser for Hanifin or Pesce, Kuz for Pesce or Skeij, or Beauvillier/Garland +++ for Zadorov or maybe even Tanev at this point.

[IBatch]

17 hours ago, Coconuts said:

 

Has nothing to do with giving up on guys, that's a lazy narrative. 

 

Kuzmenko has positive value, which is why a team might trade something good for him. Same goes for Boeser.

 

Gotta give to get. 

One of Brock or Kuzmenko likely go before their next deals.   I've been a strong proponent of trading Kuzmenko for a D since he was filling the net last season.   Hogs play of late makes this more palatable too.   Easy to replace Hogs in the bottom six from within... This is a realistic and solid proposal.   Hope the canes suffer some injuries to their wings lol.   To move things along. 

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, luckylager said:

I like the idea, but due to our lack of depth the Canucks aren't trading from a position of strength.

 

I'm enjoying watching the team win this year, and there are a few places they definitely improve, unfortunately I just don't think we're there yet. As master mind pointed out we're kinda plugging one hole by opening another. Kind of a wait and see era for me, right now. Too early to push...

This issue with the previous regime was they were in constant state of reacting rather than acting.   Right from the start.    

 

This teams needed a couple more solid hockey trade going back five years now.    Horvat and Miller of course worked great, keep it coming.   Team needs balls if they want to give this core a real shot.   Clock is ticking.   If they are serious about trying to win a cup with Miller, Demko and QHs (going to assume EP as well),  their main cap window is four seasons, and that includes this one.   Window could be longer, but suspect, just like when CHI re-signed Toews and Kane, that the Canucks end up in limbo, good but not good enough.   Then they need to wait for 4-5 years for cap to go up.   Happened to PIT and WSH too, took a decade and that's because they had generational talent pulling the bus.    You can bet, QHs next deal, is going to be 15% or more of our cap all on his own, just like those guys at the time.     And that's only if he wants to stay on the team still (hope he does!). 
 

For me anyways, make the trade.   We have too much money tied up on the wings, a big cap penalty arriving for two of those four years, and lack a full second pairing.   QHs and Hronek might have the chops like Al Mac and Pronger, or Niedermayer and Stevens, as in able to play 28-30 minutes a game most nights but we shouldn't be banking on that.    Cole and Friedman.  

Well.   Yikes.     Willander can be penciled in but not for at least 2 more years.    Adding one more rock solid D will help a lot more than Kuzmenko.   

 

Edit:  Feel they just need to keep chewing on that elephant.   Don't have a lot of hope lottery tickets are going to come in and give this group a chance unless they are taking the long view only.    A trade, some solid free agent signings and something coming in from the weeds.   Hogs looks like he could be doing that right now which makes trading Kuzmenko, that much easier. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

I wonder if teams would be cautious about Kuzmenko, he's only had one good season and riding shotgun to Petey for most of it, now he's come back down to Earth I doubt teams would buy on him now, but he does have a nice cap-hit. Boeser on the other hand must have sky-high value after leading the league in scoring for a while. There's certainly a deal to be made with the Canucks and anyone else - winger for defenceman.

 

Boeser > Kuzmenko > Beauvillier > Garland

 

On defence, I wonder if it's something like:

 

Hanifin > Pesce > Skeij > Zadorov > Tanev

 

I'd take Boeser for Hanifin or Pesce, Kuz for Pesce or Skeij, or Beauvillier/Garland +++ for Zadorov or maybe even Tanev at this point.

It's truly too bad CAL is in our division, and that it's, well CAL.   If we traded for either Zadarov or Tanev, it would instantly be the biggest trade in club history with them.    Tanev likely would come back,  new brass and same teammates.     Feel one of them will get targeted as a UFA.     

[Coconuts]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

One of Brock or Kuzmenko likely go before their next deals.   I've been a strong proponent of trading Kuzmenko for a D since he was filling the net last season.   Hogs play of late makes this more palatable too.   Easy to replace Hogs in the bottom six from within... This is a realistic and solid proposal.   Hope the canes suffer some injuries to their wings lol.   To move things along. 

 

They're both up the same year and I have a hard time seeing us keeping both, ideally we have someone to promote from within by then 

 

A Hoglander, Podz, ect

 

If Boeser can keep it going he's likely the one who stays imo

Edited November 24, 2023 by Coconuts

[Master Mind]

22 hours ago, Coconuts said:

 

They certainly look deep, absolutely. Your argument is a solid one. Carolina has lots of cap question marks coming too. 

 

Necas is due for a raise as an RFA, Teravainen likely will be too, pending UFA. Jarvis is another RFA who'll need a raise.

 

Pesce and Skjei are both pending UFA's. Noesen will be too, but he's more likely to come back down to earth imo. 

 

Not sure they can afford to keep them all. 

 

It does create another problem by hurting our forward depth, absolutely. But it's easier to move a contract with positive value than to move a Garland or Beauvillier imo. 

 

 

 

Canes surely won't be able to afford to keep everyone, but they've shown in the past that they're comfortable with letting notable players walk (Hamilton, Trocheck, etc) so I don't think they feel any urgency with Pesce or their other UFAs.

 

Kuzmenko does have more value than those forwards, but there's also the aspect that we may not want to trade Pettersson's winger when we're trying to extend him.

 

I could see a scenario where we package Beau (for cap purposes) + futures to a non-playoff team selling a D at the deadline. I just hope we don't overpay like so many other buyers do.

[luckylager]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

This issue with the previous regime was they were in constant state of reacting rather than acting.   Right from the start.    

 

This teams needed a couple more solid hockey trade going back five years now.    Horvat and Miller of course worked great, keep it coming.   Team needs balls if they want to give this core a real shot.   Clock is ticking.   If they are serious about trying to win a cup with Miller, Demko and QHs (going to assume EP as well),  their main cap window is four seasons, and that includes this one.   Window could be longer, but suspect, just like when CHI re-signed Toews and Kane, that the Canucks end up in limbo, good but not good enough.   Then they need to wait for 4-5 years for cap to go up.   Happened to PIT and WSH too, took a decade and that's because they had generational talent pulling the bus.    You can bet, QHs next deal, is going to be 15% or more of our cap all on his own, just like those guys at the time.     And that's only if he wants to stay on the team still (hope he does!). 
 

For me anyways, make the trade.   We have too much money tied up on the wings, a big cap penalty arriving for two of those four years, and lack a full second pairing.   QHs and Hronek might have the chops like Al Mac and Pronger, or Niedermayer and Stevens, as in able to play 28-30 minutes a game most nights but we shouldn't be banking on that.    Cole and Friedman.  

Well.   Yikes.     Willander can be penciled in but not for at least 2 more years.    Adding one more rock solid D will help a lot more than Kuzmenko.   

 

Edit:  Feel they just need to keep chewing on that elephant.   Don't have a lot of hope lottery tickets are going to come in and give this group a chance unless they are taking the long view only.    A trade, some solid free agent signings and something coming in from the weeds.   Hogs looks like he could be doing that right now which makes trading Kuzmenko, that much easier. 

I admire your bravery / recklessness!

[Jeremy Hronek]

Earlier this season, I had suggested Kuzmenko for Rasmus Andersson.  Given Andersson's age and contract, that might be a better fit. 

[Coconuts]

So.. are we ready to trade Kuzmenko yet? Revisiting this thread.

 

How about.. 

 

To Carolina

 

Kuzmenko 5.5M

Cole 3M

A prospect like Bains, Hirose, Johansson, or a young forward like Aman or Podz. I'm reluctant to give up on Podz but gotta give to get, he's also a player I could see Carolina having interest in. He'd give them a cost controlled RFA who could play on their roster, which they'll need with the raises they're going to have to dole out. 

 

Willing to be flexible about what we give up on top of Kuzmenko and Cole, we're paying for an upgrade in Pesce and hopefully a better fit in Teravainen. 

 

To Vancouver

 

Teravainen 5.4M

Pesce 4M

 

Both players we acquire are pending UFA's, Kuzmenko and Teravainen have similar numbers (Kuzmenko has 4 goals and 15 points in 23 games whereas Teravainen has 11 goals and 18 points in 25 games). Teravainen had a bit of a down year last season but has regularly been a 60+ point player for Carolina, Kuzmenko is having a bit of a down year but has proven that he can light the lamp even if he hasn't done it as much thus far. Teravainen has a longer track record of production but he'll also be due for a raise and I'm not sure Carolina will be able to afford to keep him, Kuzmenko gives them a replacement at 5.5M this season and next. 

 

Teravainen would probably be a rental but it's whatever, the real prize is Pesce and we're giving up a player I don't think we'll extend in Cole anyway. 

 

Cole has been good for us but he gives them someone to slot in for Pesce. They also get a forward with some term in Kuzmenko, who still has trade value imo. Cole can help stabilize their D. 

 

We give up assets on top of Cole and Kuzmenko to pay for upgrading on Cole by getting Pesce. Carolina wants to contend now, futures aren't likely to be as appealing to them imo. 

 

Just spitballing of course, but I thought I'd circle back given I've seen more people talking about trading Kuzmenko since I posted this. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Coconuts

[J-23]

It’s a good idea. At the end of the day, I want this team to still be much stronger defensively

Trade for Pesce. Sign Tanev in the off-season, sounds like there is serious potential of him returning.

 

Pelech is another defenceman I would like to trade for. Just don’t like how long the contract is and I doubt the Islanders trade him unless they decide to rebuild or take steps back.

 

Hughes - Pesce

            - Hronek

Zadorov - Tanev/Woo/McWard

 

Only problem is our winger depth is weak already. Gets much worse with Kuzmenko traded.

 

We need to get lucky here trade for a winger who needs a change, and then just takes off here with the Canucks. Like Florida did. Or hopefully Podkolzin can bring that good AHL game to the NHL now.

[Coconuts]

13 hours ago, J-23 said:

It’s a good idea. At the end of the day, I want this team to still be much stronger defensively

Trade for Pesce. Sign Tanev in the off-season, sounds like there is serious potential of him returning.

 

Pelech is another defenceman I would like to trade for. Just don’t like how long the contract is and I doubt the Islanders trade him unless they decide to rebuild or take steps back.

 

Hughes - Pesce

            - Hronek

Zadorov - Tanev/Woo/McWard

 

Only problem is our winger depth is weak already. Gets much worse with Kuzmenko traded.

 

We need to get lucky here trade for a winger who needs a change, and then just takes off here with the Canucks. Like Florida did. Or hopefully Podkolzin can bring that good AHL game to the NHL now.

 

I'd be trying to bump Garland or Hoglander up with Kuz gone, weaker winger depth might just have to be a reality this season imo if we want to further upgrade our D

 

But could always make subsequent moves

 

Getting Pesce is more a building for the present and future sort of trade, whereas I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't extend Kuzmenko 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Coconuts