[2024 NHL Awards] Quinn Hughes, Roman Josi and Cale Makar are the 2023-24 Norris Trophy finalists

[Rubik]

 

[Bob Long]

well deserved. 

[NHLer]

Fuck Josi  

[PhillipBlunt]

Hughes all day long. 

[HKSR]

If Hughes doesn't win this...

 

[-AJ-]

Hughes will win, but I'll sacrifice my reputation and state that I still believe Makar is better and is more deserving.

 

Josi is a good option, though I'd personally have Fox as my 3rd place guy and Josi at 4th.

[c00kies]

45 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

Hughes will win, but I'll sacrifice my reputation and state that I still believe Makar is better and is more deserving.

 

Overall, I agree with this.

 

This regular season though, I'd definitely favour Hughes (Makar was a bit dependent on McKinnon and was a bit worse defensively). I haven't seen Makar in the playoffs this year, but I assume he's back to his regular self.

 

I think Josi should be more in competition for the Hart than he will be.

[Coconuts]

1 minute ago, c00kies said:

Overall, I agree with this.

 

This regular season though, I'd definitely favour Hughes (Makar was a bit dependent on McKinnon and was a bit worse defensively). I haven't seen Makar in the playoffs this year, but I assume he's back to his regular self.

 

I think Josi should be more in competition for the Hart than he will be.

 

In a year that didn't feature McDavid, Kucherov, Matthews, and MacKinnon having the seasons they've had he probably would be. Hard to think of a D who's done more for their team this season than Josi, which isn't to diminish what Hughes has done, Hughes has simply had more talent to work with than Josi has and Josi still wasn't all that far behind him offensively. 

[-AJ-]

1 minute ago, c00kies said:

Overall, I agree with this.

 

This regular season though, I'd definitely favour Hughes (Makar was a bit dependent on McKinnon and was a bit worse defensively). I haven't seen Makar in the playoffs this year, but I assume he's back to his regular self.

 

I think Josi should be more in competition for the Hart than he will be.

 

I'd contend that Makar isn't nearly as deficient defensively as he's made out to be, even this season alone. I'd say he and Hughes are nearly identical offensively, though perhpas there is a case for Makar benefiting from MacKinnon (though we do have to consider that it could be the reverse too). I think Makar still manages to edge Hughes out defensively and is used accordingly in defensive roles (notably, the PK) more than Hughes is.

[Coconuts]

Hughes will probably win, he's had a stellar season and he's got the narrative of being a potential first time winner behind him, similar to Mac with the Hart. That being said, I would not be shocked to see Makar win at all because of his reputation. I still think Makar is the better player if they're both fully healthy, but it's closer than it used to be. 

Edited May 1 by Coconuts

[boziffous]

I'd be interested in seeing Makar's stats this season at even strength when he's not on the ice with MacKinnon. 

[c00kies]

2 minutes ago, boziffous said:

I'd be interested in seeing Makar's stats this season at even strength when he's not on the ice with MacKinnon. 

Someone pulled up stats that he heavily benefitted from MacKinnon.

 

That said, Makar is more of a threat to score than Hughes, and like AJ mentioned, Makar is used on the PK more.

[IBatch]

On 5/1/2024 at 4:56 PM, c00kies said:

Someone pulled up stats that he heavily benefitted from MacKinnon.

 

That said, Makar is more of a threat to score than Hughes, and like AJ mentioned, Makar is used on the PK more.

QHs is more deserving this year.   His plus minus is sick.   The ice tilts heavily out of our zone when he's on it.   Also he didn't feast as much on the PP, or play with arguably the best player on the planet right now, 5 x 5 all he did was kill it.    

 

Pretty much nailed it with Makar scores more goals.   Not as big a margin this year either.     They scored the same amount of points basically, what's two points, it will be the other parts of their game that determines who wins.   Makar had a massive gaffe in a loss to WNP, didn't matter though, they just imploded a team who was supposed to have a system and a goalie to keep scores low.     Not that the post season counts.     Careers of course Makar's has been better, give credit where it's due though, this year QHs regular season was fabulous.   

 

Not a huge fan of stat "records", that media keeps digging up and finding,  QHs name though was plastered on the TV though and hard not to be impressed with the company he's keeping.    It's not like QHs is playing with chopped liver, i'm pretty sure if you take him out of the equation we wouldn't have made it in the West this year.   That's how important he's to this club.    Makar is too.   McKinnon had an epic season,  we take out EP or Miller the effect on QHs wouldn't be the same as taking out McKinnon.    Makar maybe gets 70 points.   Wasn't his best work this season. 

Edited May 3 by IBatch

[DrJockitch]

I think Q is actually going to win this one. 
‘There was quite a justified lobby for him, even in the East. 

[IBatch]

On 5/1/2024 at 3:52 PM, -AJ- said:

 

I'd contend that Makar isn't nearly as deficient defensively as he's made out to be, even this season alone. I'd say he and Hughes are nearly identical offensively, though perhpas there is a case for Makar benefiting from MacKinnon (though we do have to consider that it could be the reverse too). I think Makar still manages to edge Hughes out defensively and is used accordingly in defensive roles (notably, the PK) more than Hughes is.

This year Tochett said in the pre-season he was going to reduce QHs minutes, which he did by over a minute compared to the past two years.    Taking away some of his PK time was a wise move,  not really a slight on the player,  we have more options.  

 

Manson is COL primary PKer, it's not like Makar is on the ice four minutes a game killing penalties.    COL also reduced Makar's minutes this year.   Save some for the post season for sure was part of the rational, as is the fact they don't need these guys on the PK.   Both start in the O-zone a lot more,  one thing that QHs owned Makar on this season is possession metrics.    Makar makes goofs too - he's far from a defensive beast,  definitely not a Borque, Lidstrom, Pronger, Chara etc on the D side, neither is QH's, or like a prime Shea Weber or  Hedman.   He's the epitome of a modern protypical sub six PMD.    Erik Karlson recently said that when he came into the league all the D's were bigger.    So he used what he had ... him and Doughty are the last guys to regularly play all the minutes ... and EK hasn't done that since Cooke's ankle stomp, so going back to his OTT days.    Makar isn't playing the top PK minutes  - as in four minutes a night.   It's too close to really consider it, and it's not how they are used either.   If it was their D-zone starts would be closer to 50%.     Both coaches use their stud D in similar fashions - this year anyways, the ice tilted significantly  more with QHs on the ice than it did with Makar.     How you get out matters.    Makar does block shots, a couple a game on average versus one every blue moon.    

 

As for post season... well this is for the regular season.    The Norris.   Do think QHs edged him this year.  

Edited May 8 by IBatch

[Diamonds]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

This year Tochett said in the pre-season he was going to reduce QHs minutes, which he did by over a minute compared to the past two years.    Taking away some of his PK time was a wise move,  not really a slight on the player,  we have more options.  

 

Manson is COL primary PKer, it's not like Makar is on the ice four minutes a game killing penalties.    COL also reduced Makar's minutes this year.   Save some for the post season for sure was part of the rational, as is the fact they don't need these guys on the PK.   Both start in the O-zone a lot more,  one thing that QHs owned Makar on this season is possession metrics.    Makar makes goofs too - he's far from a defensive beast,  definitely not a Borque, Lidstrom, Pronger, Chara etc on the D side, neither is QH's, or like a prime Shea Weber or  Hedman.   He's the epitome of a modern protypical sub six PMD.    Erik Karlson recently said that when he came into the league all the D's were bigger.    So he used what he had ... him and Doughty are the last guys to regularly play all the minutes ... and EK hasn't done that since Cooke's ankle stomp, so going back to his OTT days.    Makar isn't playing the top PK minutes  - as in four minutes a night.   It's too close to really consider it, and it's not how they are used either.   If it was their D-zone starts would be closer to 50%.     Both coaches use their stud D in similar fashions - this year anyways, the ice tilted significantly  more with QHs on the ice than it did with Makar.     How you get out matters.    Makar does block shots, a couple a game on average versus one every blue moon.    

 

As for post season... well this is for the regular season.    The Norris.   Do think QHs edged him this year.  

I think Hughes wins the Norris this year, and I believe Hughes drove play more than Makar did.

 

However, where are you getting 4 minutes a night on the PK for top unit? Literally zero defensemen in the NHL averaged 4min/game shorthanded this season. The top two were Esa Lindell and Gustav Forsling and they were slightly over and slightly under 3:30/game respectively. Makar averaged 2:33/game on the PK this year which, yes is slight decrease from his 2:44/game last season but, is second on Colorado only to Toews. For reference, Manson averaged 1:59/game so, no, he was not Colorado's top PKer, Toews and Makar were.

 

Maker's 2:33/game shorthanded places him around 50th in the league amongst defensemen. While it's not quite Lindell's 3:32/game, since there are 32 teams in the league it does still make Makar a top pairing PKer. Also, for comparison, Ian Cole was Vancouver'd top PKer and averaged 2:39/game shorthanded so Makar essentially matched him.

 

Regarding Hughes, yes his PK minutes were cut this year. Last year he averaged 1:19/game shorthanded and this year 0:36/game. However, that means that Makar still averaged twice as much time on the PK this season as Hughes did last season, and four times as much as Hughes played this season.

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, Diamonds said:

I think Hughes wins the Norris this year, and I believe Hughes drove play more than Makar did.

 

However, where are you getting 4 minutes a night on the PK for top unit? Literally zero defensemen in the NHL averaged 4min/game shorthanded this season. The top two were Esa Lindell and Gustav Forsling and they were slightly over and slightly under 3:30/game respectively. Makar averaged 2:33/game on the PK this year which, yes is slight decrease from his 2:44/game last season but, is second on Colorado only to Toews. For reference, Manson averaged 1:59/game so, no, he was not Colorado's top PKer, Toews and Makar were.

 

Maker's 2:33/game shorthanded places him around 50th in the league amongst defensemen. While it's not quite Lindell's 3:32/game, since there are 32 teams in the league it does still make Makar a top pairing PKer. Also, for comparison, Ian Cole was Vancouver'd top PKer and averaged 2:39/game shorthanded so Makar essentially matched him.

 

Regarding Hughes, yes his PK minutes were cut this year. Last year he averaged 1:19/game shorthanded and this year 0:36/game. However, that means that Makar still averaged twice as much time on the PK this season as Hughes did last season, and four times as much as Hughes played this season.

The point is nether guy is playing  28-30 minutes night in night out, and expected to kill all/ or majority of the penalties.   There was a time when that was exactly what was expected.   Hence Pronger, Lidstrom, Borque, Chara as reference points.    As for top PK - you got me.   But it's not like he's killing 4 minutes a night either.   Or anyone as you've pointed out.    Sure it's situational for COL, who goes out first Manson or Makar.   They both played close enough to the same ice time.    And wouldn't call Makar at 2:33 a big deal PK wise.   Bigger than QHs for sure. 

 

This Borques ice-time starting at age 37 when it was first tracked ...  I wouldn't call either Makar or QHs a defensive dynamo.   And don't disagree with AJ either as far as who is the better overall D ... but not this year.    Makar goofs too.   He's far from a defensive specialist.    

Edited May 8 by IBatch

[PeteyBoeser]

Last year karlsson won for most points so Go Hughes