Hamas attacking Israel

[Hat Trick Maker]

Been debating if I should enter this 300+ page rabbit hole...but darn it, here I am.

 

8 hours ago, Super19 said:

The ICJ ruling was a resounding loss for Israel. South Africa had a case, and a winning one at that. Shame on the US and Kirby calling it meritless. It did however fall short of calling for a ceasefire.

 

The genocidal intent is there folks. Not that anyone needed an ICJ ruling to tell you this. While there was no order for a complete cessation of military activity, Israel is on thin ice, must report back in 1 months time proving that they are abiding by these very strict provisions, and pretty much all of Israel's top officials are directly in the firing line of needing to be punished for their genocidal intent.

 

I think Israel will find it impossible to abide by these rules. Better off to ceasefire and diplomacy NOW. Israel is unable to eliminate Hamas without being genocidal... which is ironic because that is what Israel accuses Hamas as being. 

Here’s a quick recap of the ICJ ruling

 

• The court says it has jurisdiction to rule in the case.
• The court orders Israel to take measures to prevent acts of genocide in the Gaza Strip.
• The court says Israel must prevent and punish incitement to genocide in the Strip.
• The court says Israel must allow humanitarian aid into the Strip.
• The court obliges Israel to take more measures to protect Palestinians but does not order it to end military operations in the Strip.

 

I haven't looked up on the news much, but my initial impression so far on the ICJ's orders is that all the provisional measures are nearly empty as far as practicality goes. First, they do not amount to a final court verdict on the genocide allegation, and serve merely as a cautionary "advice". Second, there is so much room for Israel to maneuver around these measures. As an example, let's paraphrase a spokesperson from the US State Department instead, "we have reasons to believe that a democracy like Israel is abiding by international laws; at the same time we are also urging our counterpart in Tel Aviv to minimize civilian casualty as we're negotiating humanitarian aids to arrive in Gaza." Needless to say, these wordings would still "work" after these "slap on the wrist" measures. So, nothing new to see here.

 

What South Africa was really seeking in the provisional measures is an order to suspend military operations. This "ceasefire" order was given in Ukraine's genocide case against Russia last year. But Russia ignored it, not surprisingly, and became more internationally isolated. So there is no reason to believe that the Netanyahu administration would obey an order like this. This hypothetical rejection to a ceasefire was however anticipated by South Africa. What they were really looking for was a moral victory, one that would help pressure the international community to hold a firmer stance on Israel, as supported by the would-be ceasefire order.

 

Unless the court would take the one month "grace period" seriously and order a ceasefire should the humanitarian situations worsen, the "ceasefire" discrepancy between Russia's case and Israel's will only serve to undermine the ICJ's credibility and reinforce the notion of "western double standard" kept by those who long held grievances against global injustice.

 

Anyway, I should defer to the opinions of legal experts and go and catch up on related news.

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

I found the link, it was harder to find the right one than i thought it would be considering i quoted the original post, should have been easy to find that way

https://www.afr.com/world/middle-east/israel-s-war-in-gaza-is-among-the-most-destructive-in-history-experts-say-20231222-p5et8k

 

As to the bolded part, i can agree to the right of self determination and live in a free and just society. The forming of a state(or states) however is not something I can consider a right. Im not necessarily opposed to a Palestinian state(or states if Gaza and West bank became separate independent states rather than uniting) coming into existence. Honestly though, reunification of Israel with the Palestinian territories would be the best solution but requires a renunciation of the violence by Palestinians and a return of stolen lands by Israel (which doesnt sound like its out of the realm of possibility from what was posted by i think RomanPer a few weeks back?). I will state quite clearly here though that I am opposed to all religious states regardless of which religion so if the founding principle of a Palestinian state is the common religion I wont be in favor of it as religious laws take away the rights of individuals. I consider any state that discriminates against women to not deserve to exist.

 

Ive only had time to look at 1 of the 4 links you posted about persecution so far. However it was about the west bank not Gaza. But if accurate then i can see the claim about apartheid in the west bank having some grounds. I dont think it applies to Gaza though as from what I understand Isreal does not enforce the law in Gaza? Am I wrong on this? If so let me know. Ill try to check out those other 3 articles later today.

 

Just finished the second one, it was also about the west bank but did not go into any details on what specifically Isreal was doing. I did see one quote in there that i cant disagree with “As long as in this territory west of the Jordan river there is only one political entity called Israel it is going to be either non-Jewish or non-democratic”. While Israel needs to be a safe place for Jewish people, it does not need to only be jewish.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

 

3rd one. This one was also light on details, the only line with anything specific is “Palestinian people lack almost all basic rights, including the right to vote and protest,” the petition reads, “Settler vigilantes burn, loot, and kill with impunity.” This is still really vague though but im assuming it is also about the west bank. I wish they would go into specifics on these claims rather than just general statements. Obviously settlers attacking people is a crime and should be dealt with. But without more details I cant really evaluate how prevalent it is or compare it to violence against jewish people to see if this qualifies as persecution or if it is just conflict between 2 sides. I believe persecution is generally a 1 sided thing and this article doesnt have enough data for me to accept that definition. Is it even possible for 2 sides to persecute each other? Im gonna have to go back and look at the definition of persecute again to see if maybe there are other ways to define it that im not aware of.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/27/accusing-israel-of-apartheid-is-not-anti-semitic-holocaust-historian

 

This 4th article is more useful. It separates the west bank from gaza and discusses specifics on them. I dont agree with its opinion on Gaza still being ruled by Israel. Looking at the west bank and East Jerusalem parts of the article do support the apartheid claim though. Gaza however is self ruled if not fully independent. Im still not sure this counts as persecution though. I think what makes it persecution is intent. The googled definitions i got are 1.) hostility and ill-treatment, especially on the basis of ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation or political beliefs.

2.) persistent annoyance or harassment.

From what i understand, the intent is to protect jewish people from persecution. Is it persecution to take steps to protect yourself and your people? Is there evidence that Israel is doing its actions to meet one of the definitions above? I can see a case for the second condition as a result of all the attacks against Israel. I dont know where the line is between self defense and persecution here. There is too much opinion and not enough facts.

https://www.btselem.org/publications/202210_not_a_vibrant_democracy_this_is_apartheid

 

It still seems like for Gaza at least, the peace process needs to be started by the Palestinians, or perhaps i should call them the people of Gaza. Lumping Gaza in with other Palestinian areas just confuses the issues and makes it harder to determine a course of action to bring about peace. In Gaza the support of the use of violence against Israel needs to stop, so long as it remains, Israel will have to continue the actions that some are considering persecution. Any other course of action will just give Hamas and their supporters the chance to hurt more people. In the West bank Israel can take a more active role in the peace process.

 

So you don't think the war in Gaza, or a more apt description is, Israel destroying Gaza, is one of the most destructive in history ? 

 

" Experts say the besieged strip is unrecognisable and it's bombing the most destructive in modern history "

 

As for figures in relation to damage, there are a few so I chose to use an Isreali source that quotes a world bank report 

 

 

" Over 60 percent of residential buildings in the Gaza strip or 132,590 buildings have been damaged amid the war "

 

The body calculated that the destruction had left 1,076, Gazans with out a home, out of a population of 2.2 million.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/world-bank-report-finds-45-of-residential-buildings-in-gaza-ruined-beyond-repair/

 

Now this is not to belittle the figure of just over a 1000 Isrealis and other foreign national killed on October the 7th, however do you honestly believe that this is a proportionate response to that attack ?

The majority of the civilised world states this is a humanitarian crisis. 

 

To put the civilian deaths in Gaza into context with war in Ukraine which has been going on for nearly 2 years 

10,000 civilian deaths in 2 years in Ukraine 

These are the latest figures I could  find for deaths in Gaza, 26,000 all told.

So if you take out 9,000 Hamas fighters that is 16,000 civilian deaths in 4 months.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/live-updates-gaza-death-toll-surpasses-26000-israel-106701308

 

 

" Daily death rate higher than any other major 21st century conflict "

 

https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam

 

 

 

So if the forming of a state is not a right, what right did the Israelis/ Jews have back in 1948 to form their state ?

To use the words of a couple of Rabbis the Zionists sent to Palestine at the turn of the century in regards to setting up a Jewish state, they sent back a letter that stated, " the bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man " 

 

However I am not arguing against a Israeli state, I have continually stated that both the Palestinians and the Israelis have the right to self determination, to live in free and just societies.

 

 

So even though many Isrealis themselves, as well as many international human right institutions,  state Israel is practising arpartheid on the Israeli people you are OK with that ?

Don't you realise that what happens to Palestinians in the west bank affects Palestinians in Gaza and east Jerusalem as well, they don't differentiate between themselves, they are all Palestinians and consider themselves one people. 

 

 

It never ceases to amaze me me how people find ways to justify unjust things happening to other people, they wouldn't happening to them.

 

This attitude is why Hamas is able to exist.

[Ilunga]

4 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

I am still baffled why folks arent calling for Hamas to surrender in order to save the lives and what is left of the property of the citizens of Gaza? Surely bombs stop falling the moment Hamas surrenders. 

 

I am calling for Hamas to surrender.

I have condemned their use of violence long before this attack, in other discussions about this conflict.

I condemn the use of violence anywhere full stop.

 

I am baffled by the fact that folks aren't condemning the acts of settler violence on Palestinians.

They aren't condemning the settlers who are continually illegally taking land of the Palestinians. 

 

 

In this article about " Arabs" who live in Isreal what one girl states kinda encapsulates this thread for me 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/arab-israeli-citizens-cmd-intl/index.html

 

" Buttu said that as a Palestinian in Israel she feel like she is by default considered a threat, The only way I am not part of the human animal group is if I denounce terrorism first. I have to prove my humanity to them but I never ask Jewish people to denounce the settlers violence, to denounce those attacks she said " 

 

This illustrates in reverse the double standard in this thread, many people, and rightfully so denounce the terrorist attacks/ violence committed by Hamas.

Not many posters in this thread condemn the acts of violence perpetrated by Isreali settlers on Palestinians.

[Alflives]

2 hours ago, Hat Trick Maker said:

Been debating if I should enter this 300+ page rabbit hole...but darn it, here I am.

 

 

I haven't looked up on the news much, but my initial impression so far on the ICJ's orders is that all the provisional measures are nearly empty as far as practicality goes. First, they do not amount to a final court verdict on the genocide allegation, and serve merely as a cautionary "advice". Second, there is so much room for Israel to maneuver around these measures. As an example, let's paraphrase a spokesperson from the US State Department instead, "we have reasons to believe that a democracy like Israel is abiding by international laws; at the same time we are also urging our counterpart in Tel Aviv to minimize civilian casualty as we're negotiating humanitarian aids to arrive in Gaza." Needless to say, these wordings would still "work" after these "slap on the wrist" measures. So, nothing new to see here.

 

What South Africa was really seeking in the provisional measures is an order to suspend military operations. This "ceasefire" order was given in Ukraine's genocide case against Russia last year. But Russia ignored it, not surprisingly, and became more internationally isolated. So there is no reason to believe that the Netanyahu administration would obey an order like this. This hypothetical rejection to a ceasefire was however anticipated by South Africa. What they were really looking for was a moral victory, one that would help pressure the international community to hold a firmer stance on Israel, as supported by the would-be ceasefire order.

 

Unless the court would take the one month "grace period" seriously and order a ceasefire should the humanitarian situations worsen, the "ceasefire" discrepancy between Russia's case and Israel's will only serve to undermine the ICJ's credibility and reinforce the notion of "western double standard" kept by those who long held grievances against global injustice.

 

Anyway, I should defer to the opinions of legal experts and go and catch up on related news.

Russia invaded Ukraine without provocation. Israel was attacked by Hamas on October 7 and are justified in their destruction of those attackers. Hamas could surrender and then the war would be over. 

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Hat Trick Maker said:

Been debating if I should enter this 300+ page rabbit hole...but darn it, here I am.

 

 

I haven't looked up on the news much, but my initial impression so far on the ICJ's orders is that all the provisional measures are nearly empty as far as practicality goes. First, they do not amount to a final court verdict on the genocide allegation, and serve merely as a cautionary "advice". Second, there is so much room for Israel to maneuver around these measures. As an example, let's paraphrase a spokesperson from the US State Department instead, "we have reasons to believe that a democracy like Israel is abiding by international laws; at the same time we are also urging our counterpart in Tel Aviv to minimize civilian casualty as we're negotiating humanitarian aids to arrive in Gaza." Needless to say, these wordings would still "work" after these "slap on the wrist" measures. So, nothing new to see here.

 

What South Africa was really seeking in the provisional measures is an order to suspend military operations. This "ceasefire" order was given in Ukraine's genocide case against Russia last year. But Russia ignored it, not surprisingly, and became more internationally isolated. So there is no reason to believe that the Netanyahu administration would obey an order like this. This hypothetical rejection to a ceasefire was however anticipated by South Africa. What they were really looking for was a moral victory, one that would help pressure the international community to hold a firmer stance on Israel, as supported by the would-be ceasefire order.

 

Unless the court would take the one month "grace period" seriously and order a ceasefire should the humanitarian situations worsen, the "ceasefire" discrepancy between Russia's case and Israel's will only serve to undermine the ICJ's credibility and reinforce the notion of "western double standard" kept by those who long held grievances against global injustice.

 

Anyway, I should defer to the opinions of legal experts and go and catch up on related news.

 

You are on point with that statement, 

" western double standard ", brother.

 

As I stated in another post, it never ceases to amaze me how people find reasons to justify unjust actions happening to others, they would not want happening to themselves.

[Yoshiyoshi]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

So you don't think the war in Gaza, or a more apt description is, Israel destroying Gaza, is one of the most destructive in history ? 

 

" Experts say the besieged strip is unrecognisable and it's bombing the most destructive in modern history "

 

As for figures in relation to damage, there are a few so I chose to use an Isreali source that quotes a world bank report 

 

 

" Over 60 percent of residential buildings in the Gaza strip or 132,590 buildings have been damaged amid the war "

 

The body calculated that the destruction had left 1,076, Gazans with out a home, out of a population of 2.2 million.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/world-bank-report-finds-45-of-residential-buildings-in-gaza-ruined-beyond-repair/

 

Now this is not to belittle the figure of just over a 1000 Isrealis and other foreign national killed on October the 7th, however do you honestly believe that this is a proportionate response to that attack ?

The majority of the civilised world states this is a humanitarian crisis. 

 

To put the civilian deaths in Gaza into context with war in Ukraine which has been going on for nearly 2 years 

10,000 civilian deaths in 2 years in Ukraine 

These are the latest figures I could  find for deaths in Gaza, 26,000 all told.

So if you take out 9,000 Hamas fighters that is 16,000 civilian deaths in 4 months.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/live-updates-gaza-death-toll-surpasses-26000-israel-106701308

 

 

" Daily death rate higher than any other major 21st century conflict "

 

https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam

 

 

 

So if the forming of a state is not a right, what right did the Israelis/ Jews have back in 1948 to form their state ?

To use the words of a couple of Rabbis the Zionists sent to Palestine at the turn of the century in regards to setting up a Jewish state, they sent back a letter that stated, " the bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man " 

 

However I am not arguing against a Israeli state, I have continually stated that both the Palestinians and the Israelis have the right to self determination, to live in free and just societies.

 

 

So even though many Isrealis themselves, as well as many international human right institutions,  state Israel is practising arpartheid on the Israeli people you are OK with that ?

Don't you realise that what happens to Palestinians in the west bank affects Palestinians in Gaza and east Jerusalem as well, they don't differentiate between themselves, they are all Palestinians and consider themselves one people. 

 

 

It never ceases to amaze me me how people find ways to justify unjust things happening to other people, they wouldn't happening to them.

 

This attitude is why Hamas is able to exist.

Israel did not have a right to exist in 1948, but it does now that it does exist. In order for a nation to come into being, there needs to be a reason for it to come into existence that unites people. Im honestly not sure what criteria determines whether or not a state should be created, and it is honestly not something im going to be able to figure out in a reasonable time frame to answer the question on this forum.

 

Quote

Now this is not to belittle the figure of just over a 1000 Isrealis and other foreign national killed on October the 7th, however do you honestly believe that this is a proportionate response to that attack ?

Maybe you dont mean to belittle it, but you just did by rounding the number down to 1000 from 1200 which last i heard was the rounded down estimate for the number of killed people by Hamas. There was no reason to do that. Unless you have a reliable source that has updated the count? If so i will withdraw my statement.

As to the proportionate response, thats not something that can be determined by numbers alone. This isnt an eye for an eye. A line was crossed by Hamas and its no longer about getting even or whatever the correct term is. This is a war of annihilation against Hamas, Israel cannot coexist with them anymore. While i dont think it is possible for Israel to kill or capture 100% of the Hamas members, they need to get close to that or there will be no chance of peace in the future., except through real genocide. This war has to accomplish A.) The annihilation of Hamas, B.) It needs to show the resolve of Israel to deal with such threats no matter the cost or collateral damage, C) It needs to serve as a warning/deterrent to other parties of what will happen to them should they attempt to do what Hamas did. If i had to lodge a complaint about how Israel has handled this war, it would be in that they didnt allow the civilian population to leave Gaza as that is just giving Hamas more human shields to hide behind but then again, evacuating close to 2 million people presents its own challenges so maybe it wasnt a viable option?

 

The Ukraine death toll among civilians that you quoted im pretty sure is for the first year. Unlike in Gaza, the battle zones are empty of civilians for the most part now and the only civilians being killed are in Russian terror attacks on civilian targets. Id swear when i last checked it was somewhere around 12k around november but i could be wrong on this. But this also shows that the civilian death toll drops significantly when civilians arent being used as human shields. When Hamas sets up a rocket position on a roof of a building  with civilians in it, there isnt much of a choice on what to do, you either do nothing and hope none of the rockets get through the air defenses, or strike the building. Not much more i can say on this, its been repeated enough times so ill let it drop here.

 

Quote

So even though many Isrealis themselves, as well as many international human right institutions,  state Israel is practising arpartheid on the Israeli people you are OK with that ?

Don't you realise that what happens to Palestinians in the west bank affects Palestinians in Gaza and east Jerusalem as well, they don't differentiate between themselves, they are all Palestinians and consider themselves one people. 

 

 

It never ceases to amaze me me how people find ways to justify unjust things happening to other people, they wouldn't happening to them.

 

This attitude is why Hamas is able to exist.

Im going to have to disagree here again. They have 2 different governments and are treated differently by Israel. If there is a group of people threatening another group of people they get treated differently. In order for that to change, the threatening behavior has to change. It isnt fair to the Palestinians who are innocent of such things, but because there is a large enough percentage among them, the whole group gets tainted. This is not fair or just, but it is reality. It is not ok to expect someone to ignore threats to themselves to satisfy an ideological belief. Again the keystone to this whole situation in Gaza is the Palestinians, they are the ones who need to change to start any improvements. Hamas is able to continue existing because of the people of Gaza, Israels policys certainly dont help the situation either though. At best Hamas is 2.5% of the population, half that if the 25k number of members is actually accurate. Not exactly a large enough percentage to maintain control of a population, its not even at the level of recommended police per population percentage. To me this says that there has to be enough passive support in the population to prevent revolt from occuring or that they are not unhappy enough with Hamas to remove them.

[Ilunga]

9 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Russia invaded Ukraine without provocation. Israel was attacked by Hamas on October 7 and are justified in their destruction of those attackers. Hamas could surrender and then the war would be over. 

 

There is what civilised, humane people call a proportionate response in relation to Israel's response to the October 7th attack. 

 

What also has to be taken into account is Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people for the last 30 years. 

 

Not that this is a justification for the October 7th attack, however desperate people have been know to render desperate deeds. 

 

Again I condemn the use of violence anywhere, anytime.

[Yoshiyoshi]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

There is what civilised, humane people call a proportionate response in relation to Israel's response to the October 7th attack. 

 

What also has to be taken into account is Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people for the last 30 years. 

 

Not that this is a justification for the October 7th attack, however desperate people have been know to render desperate deeds. 

 

Again I condemn the use of violence anywhere, anytime.

Completely disagree here. It doesnt matter what Israel may have done. Even if they were fucking Nazis running death camps it does not mitigate what happened on Oct 7th in anyway. If they had attacked an appropriate target then there would be a case for what you say. But they did not.

 

I am curious though, what do you consider a proportionate response?

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Israel did not have a right to exist in 1948, but it does now that it does exist. In order for a nation to come into being, there needs to be a reason for it to come into existence that unites people. Im honestly not sure what criteria determines whether or not a state should be created, and it is honestly not something im going to be able to figure out in a reasonable time frame to answer the question on this forum.

 

Maybe you dont mean to belittle it, but you just did by rounding the number down to 1000 from 1200 which last i heard was the rounded down estimate for the number of killed people by Hamas. There was no reason to do that. Unless you have a reliable source that has updated the count? If so i will withdraw my statement.

As to the proportionate response, thats not something that can be determined by numbers alone. This isnt an eye for an eye. A line was crossed by Hamas and its no longer about getting even or whatever the correct term is. This is a war of annihilation against Hamas, Israel cannot coexist with them anymore. While i dont think it is possible for Israel to kill or capture 100% of the Hamas members, they need to get close to that or there will be no chance of peace in the future., except through real genocide. This war has to accomplish A.) The annihilation of Hamas, B.) It needs to show the resolve of Israel to deal with such threats no matter the cost or collateral damage, C) It needs to serve as a warning/deterrent to other parties of what will happen to them should they attempt to do what Hamas did. If i had to lodge a complaint about how Israel has handled this war, it would be in that they didnt allow the civilian population to leave Gaza as that is just giving Hamas more human shields to hide behind but then again, evacuating close to 2 million people presents its own challenges so maybe it wasnt a viable option?

 

The Ukraine death toll among civilians that you quoted im pretty sure is for the first year. Unlike in Gaza, the battle zones are empty of civilians for the most part now and the only civilians being killed are in Russian terror attacks on civilian targets. Id swear when i last checked it was somewhere around 12k around november but i could be wrong on this. But this also shows that the civilian death toll drops significantly when civilians arent being used as human shields. When Hamas sets up a rocket position on a roof of a building  with civilians in it, there isnt much of a choice on what to do, you either do nothing and hope none of the rockets get through the air defenses, or strike the building. Not much more i can say on this, its been repeated enough times so ill let it drop here.

 

Im going to have to disagree here again. They have 2 different governments and are treated differently by Israel. If there is a group of people threatening another group of people they get treated differently. In order for that to change, the threatening behavior has to change. It isnt fair to the Palestinians who are innocent of such things, but because there is a large enough percentage among them, the whole group gets tainted. This is not fair or just, but it is reality. It is not ok to expect someone to ignore threats to themselves to satisfy an ideological belief. Again the keystone to this whole situation in Gaza is the Palestinians, they are the ones who need to change to start any improvements. Hamas is able to continue existing because of the people of Gaza, Israels policys certainly dont help the situation either though. At best Hamas is 2.5% of the population, half that if the 25k number of members is actually accurate. Not exactly a large enough percentage to maintain control of a population, its not even at the level of recommended police per population percentage. To me this says that there has to be enough passive support in the population to prevent revolt from occuring or that they are not unhappy enough with Hamas to remove them.

 

The state of Palestine was recognised by the UNas an observer state in November 2012.

As of June last year 139 member states recognise the state of Palestine, 165 recognise the state of Israel.

For full disclosure both our country's don't recognise the state of Palestine, they want Isreal and the PA to negotiate a two state solution.

 

For starters I apologise for understating the figure of Isrealis killed on October 7.

There is some confusion about the number actually killed by Hamas 

 

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths

 

This article , Israeli security data claims 1,139

 

Then there are Israeli eyewitness claims that the IDF , tanks killed their own citizens.

 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/another-israeli-witness-confirms-israeli-tanks-killed-own-citizens-on-oct-7/3079514

 

 

 

 

Also Israel has admitted to firing upon and killing attendee's at the music festival

 

https://thecradle.co/articles-id/13111 

 

 

 

 

The rest is basically a long winded justification for unjust actions.

By any civilised, humane standard, this is a disproportionate response. 

So you have a family right, few kids, living in poverty, you are going to challenge what many claim in this thread are well armed fanatics and have your family killed in front of you ?

I will be totally honest, I wouldn't.

The most precious thing is my son, I would do anything to protect him, including sacrificing my life to save his.

 

" But when you see the end don't justify the means 

It's just that 180 degrees 

The great thing about being a human 

Is our ability to reason 

But reason it don't work when no one cares 

Two parts apathy, one part despair "

 

Mike Burkett

 

I guess the difference between us is you see violence as the way to solve this never ending conflict, remembering that this current phase is only part of a 80 year history of conflict.

I see working together to find what each people have in common as the answer to this conflict. 

 

Just out of curiosity have you ever been in violent situations ?

I have been in very violent situations when I was younger, I was even shot.

 

I can tell you first hand that violence doesn't change peoples attitudes, it only makes problems worse.

I had to learn this the hard way.

 

I also had to learn to forgive the person who shot me, it wasn't so much being shot, it was the betrayal factor, to move on with my life and find happiness.

 

[Ilunga]

39 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Completely disagree here. It doesnt matter what Israel may have done. Even if they were fucking Nazis running death camps it does not mitigate what happened on Oct 7th in anyway. If they had attacked an appropriate target then there would be a case for what you say. But they did not.

 

I am curious though, what do you consider a proportionate response?

 

We have seen how in previous responses to terror attacks Israel has been far more surgical in their response.

 

They took out one of their most feared adversaries Qasam Soleimani in a drone strike in Iran I 2020.

They did the same again last year Sayyed Razi Mousavi.

 

While there are far more targets this time around even Joe Biden, the president of Isreal best buddy has called Isreals airstrikes/ bombing indiscriminate.

 

Indiscriminate

" Done at random or without careful judgement"

 

Most of the civilised world has called on Isreal to be restrained in their response.

If you call this response restrained with the figures I have provided, there will be no changing your mind. 

 

As for the Nazi death camps statement WTF dude ?

To use this in any form, let alone connected to Isreal is fucked up.

[Yoshiyoshi]

13 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

We have seen how in previous responses to terror attacks Israel has been far more surgical in their response.

 

They took out one of their most feared adversaries Qasam Soleimani in a drone strike in Iran I 2020.

They did the same again last year Sayyed Razi Mousavi.

 

While there are far more targets this time around even Joe Biden, the president of Isreal best buddy has called Isreals airstrikes/ bombing indiscriminate.

 

Indiscriminate

" Done at random or without careful judgement"

 

Most of the civilised world has called on Isreal to be restrained in their response.

If you call this response restrained with the figures I have provided, there will be no changing your mind. 

 

As for the Nazi death camps statement WTF dude ?

To use this in any form, let alone connected to Isreal is fucked up.

If that is how you respond to what i said, then lets just be done, i wont respond to you anymore and you can ignore me. I cant make you see how fucked up some of the things you say are, and you seem to feel the same about what I say. This isnt resolvable through discussion

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

If that is how you respond to what i said, then lets just be done, i wont respond to you anymore and you can ignore me. I cant make you see how fucked up some of the things you say are, and you seem to feel the same about what I say. This isnt resolvable through discussion

 

You don't understand how someone can find that offensive ?

 

Using the Nazi death camps as any form of an analogy is fucked up ?

Especially in relation to anything that has to do with Israel/ the Jews ?

 

Please I would like to know, what I, in your opinion is anything that I have stated is fucked up. 

 

I am always open to criticism.

I don't give up on a discussion just because someone states something I find offensive, I try and find common ground.

 

 

Also you haven't answered my question

Have you ever been involved in very violent situations ?

This does have relevance to our discussion, as I have stated, I have.

I learnt the hard way, violence doesn't solve problems, it only makes them worse.

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

There is what civilised, humane people call a proportionate response in relation to Israel's response to the October 7th attack. 

 

What also has to be taken into account is Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people for the last 30 years. 

 

Not that this is a justification for the October 7th attack, however desperate people have been know to render desperate deeds. 

 

Again I condemn the use of violence anywhere, anytime.

The issue is equating Russia’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine and Israel’s rooting out (justifiably) the evil that is Hamas after being attacked so viciously October 7. 
IMHAO it’s wrong to compare the two. 
But really our posts here will have no effect on what happens in the real world. Alf hopes the Hamas people surrender soon so the war will stop. If they truly cared about the Gaza people Hamas would lay down their arms. 

[Ilunga]

@Yoshiyoshi and anyone else who is interested 

 

There are two translations of my username.

 

When used as a Christian name, it is a derivative of the verb Kulunga, which means to Unite, unify, gather or put together.

 

When used as word in Bantu, it translates to 

A person who is willing to forgive abuse the first time, tolerate it the second time, but never a third time.

 

Linguists have interpreted this as the complexity of tolerance, it's many layers. 

 

I am sorry if I have offended you.

I was given the nickname " intense " dave. 

I passionately argue about what I believe is injustice wherever that maybe.

 

Why do you believe that so many people around the world believe the way I do about the not just this particular phase of the conflict, but how the Palestinians have been treated for decades ? 

 

[Ilunga]

10 minutes ago, Alflives said:

The issue is equating Russia’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine and Israel’s rooting out (justifiably) the evil that is Hamas after being attacked so viciously October 7. 
IMHAO it’s wrong to compare the two. 
But really our posts here will have no effect on what happens in the real world. Alf hopes the Hamas people surrender soon so the war will stop. If they truly cared about the Gaza people Hamas would lay down their arms. 

 

I hope that Hamas surrenders to.

We both know they don't give a rats arse about the Palestinian people. 

 

You're a good person Alf, doesn't it break your heart seeing some of the footage coming out of Gaza ?

When I see I dead child in the arms of their parents I cannot help but visualise that is me with Lachlan.

 

I don't watch much news however I feel that I should bear witness to these events.

 

[Yoshiyoshi]

53 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

You don't understand how someone can find that offensive ?

 

Using the Nazi death camps as any form of an analogy is fucked up ?

Especially in relation to anything that has to do with Israel/ the Jews ?

 

Please I would like to know, what I, in your opinion is anything that I have stated is fucked up. 

 

I am always open to criticism.

I don't give up on a discussion just because someone states something I find offensive, I try and find common ground.

 

 

Also you haven't answered my question

Have you ever been involved in very violent situations ?

This does have relevance to our discussion, as I have stated, I have.

I learnt the hard way, violence doesn't solve problems, it only makes them worse.

Ok ill respond 1 more time but then im taking a break from this thread for a bit.

 

I found your response offensive. I used an extreme analogy to point out what i took issue with in your post, and instead of responding to it you went "OMG Nazis im offended". That pisses me off. I cant control what offends you, but im not going to respect that either. Especially with the claims of genocide against Israel by you and others who support that claim.

In recent replies to me you have dismissed things i have said as propaganda, ignored entire paragraphs by just saying im supporting injustice, or completely dismissing my response because im just a poster on a forum when i questioned the math on a statement. These responses are not attacks on my posts, but me. If you have facts to counter my facts then im fine with debating. I had more i wanted to say here but i cant find the words to properly express myself so im deleting it and stopping here.

 

Last thing you asked, have I ever been in a violent situation, the answer is no. Ive never hurt anyone , not even when I was bullied as a kid. I wish i could have, maybe I wouldnt have been so unhappy with life. I dont associate with people who are likely to use violence nor do I go to places where such people hang out. You believe violence doesnt solve anything, I dont agree with that statement, sometimes it does, sometimes it makes things worse. From what ive seen in my life, nonviolence hasnt solved any problems either, they have just festered and gotten worse. You cannot reason with people who want you dead or enslaved, so what do you do? Ive decided that the right answer is to support those who are fighting such people. So I support Ukraine, I support Israel's Gaza campaign. I support the airstrikes in Yemen. Id rather support a Just war than an Unjust peace.Is the Israeli response disproportionate? I dont believe so, but the answer to this question wont be clear until after the war is over

 

 

Ok no more debating or whatever this is. Im done for a bit

 

[Ilunga]

3 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Ok ill respond 1 more time but then im taking a break from this thread for a bit.

 

I found your response offensive. I used an extreme analogy to point out what i took issue with in your post, and instead of responding to it you went "OMG Nazis im offended". That pisses me off. I cant control what offends you, but im not going to respect that either. Especially with the claims of genocide against Israel by you and others who support that claim.

In recent replies to me you have dismissed things i have said as propaganda, ignored entire paragraphs by just saying im supporting injustice, or completely dismissing my response because im just a poster on a forum when i questioned the math on a statement. These responses are not attacks on my posts, but me. If you have facts to counter my facts then im fine with debating. I had more i wanted to say here but i cant find the words to properly express myself so im deleting it and stopping here.

 

Last thing you asked, have I ever been in a violent situation, the answer is no. Ive never hurt anyone , not even when I was bullied as a kid. I wish i could have, maybe I wouldnt have been so unhappy with life. I dont associate with people who are likely to use violence nor do I go to places where such people hang out. You believe violence doesnt solve anything, I dont agree with that statement, sometimes it does, sometimes it makes things worse. From what ive seen in my life, nonviolence hasnt solved any problems either, they have just festered and gotten worse. You cannot reason with people who want you dead or enslaved, so what do you do? Ive decided that the right answer is to support those who are fighting such people. So I support Ukraine, I support Israel's Gaza campaign. I support the airstrikes in Yemen. Id rather support a Just war than an Unjust peace.Is the Israeli response disproportionate? I dont believe so, but the answer to this question wont be clear until after the war is over

 

 

Ok no more debating or whatever this is. Im done for a bit

 

 

It wasn't the Nazis, it was the reference to the death camps.

 

Like mate they are one of, if not the worst things our species has ever done.

 

I have repeated this many times, find one post where I have claimed Isreal has committed genocide against the Palestinians.

I was one of the first with @Elias Pettersson to defend them from that charge.

Since then I have been silent on the matter.

I am not happy with continually being accused of something that not only I  did not do, but at one time was actually doing the opposite of what you, and other have accused me of.

 

The state of Isreal was built on the back of terrorist acts, committed by terror groups such as the Irgun, the Stern gang and the Lehi.

Leaders of those organisations went on to become Prime Ministers of Isreal and hold other positions of power.

 

I have posted the relevant information, even Isreali cabinet documents that state the crimes against humanity they committed, and the reaction of cabinet members some of which were really damning of the character of their, the Jewish people. 

So when the Isrealis commit acts of terror to form their state, no foul, but when the Palestinians do, they are called to account  ?

They both should be called to account IMO.

A Terrorist is a Terrorist is a Terrorist.

 

I have no more ignored any of what you have stated than you have when you have replied to posts of mine, example

I, ( you) am claiming BS  in regards to that American generals study about how many terrorist recruited for every civilian killed.

You stated we would be over run with terrorists.

As I stated are there any terrorists in 

Canada, Australia, GB, Europe etc and are civilians being killed in relation to responses to those terror groups actions, civilians killed. 

 

I haven't seen you once condemn the settlers acts of violence upon Palestinians after, let alone before the October 7th attack 

 

https://www.dfat.gov.au/news/media-release/joint-statement-settler-violence-west-bank

 

" Since the start of October, the settlers have committed more than 343 violent attacks, killing 8 Palestinian civilians, injuring more than 83, and forcing 1026 Palestinians from their homes " 

 

 

For the record I support Ukraine to, I have actually donated money to humanitarian institutions that are working within their borders, 

UNICEF and MSF. 

 

Any way on a personal human level, I wish you and your family the best.

Hope you are having a good one mate.

[Super19]

What is the appropriate response for this? Can Palestine have their prisoners/hostages freed and enact their right to self defense and eliminating terrorists? 

And before you dismiss this as propaganda, think carefully about how and why you're dismissing it as propaganda and if you find it sketchy we can talk about testimonies and claims made from Oct 7.

Also, if you think this testimony is outside the realm of plausible possibility, think again after watching this:

 

 

Why do so many Palestenian children get detained by Israel? Because they throw rocks or worse? Why are they throwing rocks or worse? Because they are antisemetic little terrorists or are they acting in self defense from oppression and occupation - oppression and occupation which is well documented and recognized. Did you know Israel has the greenlight to detain Palestenians without a trial if they think they are terrorists/a threat? My goodness that sounds like an unacceptable thing to do but it happens. So what happens when a Palestenian is taken away from their family, detained and held prisoner without a trial, and then raped in prison?

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Yoshiyoshi]

12 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

It wasn't the Nazis, it was the reference to the death camps.

 

Like mate they are one of, if not the worst things our species has ever done.

 

I have repeated this many times, find one post where I have claimed Isreal has committed genocide against the Palestinians.

I was one of the first with @Elias Pettersson to defend them from that charge.

Since then I have been silent on the matter.

I am not happy with continually being accused of something that not only I  did not do, but at one time was actually doing the opposite of what you, and other have accused me of.

 

The state of Isreal was built on the back of terrorist acts, committed by terror groups such as the Irgun, the Stern gang and the Lehi.

Leaders of those organisations went on to become Prime Ministers of Isreal and hold other positions of power.

 

I have posted the relevant information, even Isreali cabinet documents that state the crimes against humanity they committed, and the reaction of cabinet members some of which were really damning of the character of their, the Jewish people. 

So when the Isrealis commit acts of terror to form their state, no foul, but when the Palestinians do, they are called to account  ?

They both should be called to account IMO.

A Terrorist is a Terrorist is a Terrorist.

 

I have no more ignored any of what you have stated than you have when you have replied to posts of mine, example

I, ( you) am claiming BS  in regards to that American generals study about how many terrorist recruited for every civilian killed.

You stated we would be over run with terrorists.

As I stated are there any terrorists in 

Canada, Australia, GB, Europe etc and are civilians being killed in relation to responses to those terror groups actions, civilians killed. 

 

I haven't seen you once condemn the settlers acts of violence upon Palestinians after, let alone before the October 7th attack 

 

https://www.dfat.gov.au/news/media-release/joint-statement-settler-violence-west-bank

 

" Since the start of October, the settlers have committed more than 343 violent attacks, killing 8 Palestinian civilians, injuring more than 83, and forcing 1026 Palestinians from their homes " 

 

 

For the record I support Ukraine to, I have actually donated money to humanitarian institutions that are working within their borders, 

UNICEF and MSF. 

 

Any way on a personal human level, I wish you and your family the best.

Hope you are having a good one mate.

If i was wrong about you supporting the genocide claims, i apologize.

[RomanPer]

14 hours ago, Super19 said:

What is the appropriate response for this? Can Palestine have their prisoners/hostages freed and enact their right to self defense and eliminating terrorists? 

And before you dismiss this as propaganda, think carefully about how and why you're dismissing it as propaganda and if you find it sketchy we can talk about testimonies and claims made from Oct 7.

Also, if you think this testimony is outside the realm of plausible possibility, think again after watching this:

 

 

Why do so many Palestenian children get detained by Israel? Because they throw rocks or worse? Why are they throwing rocks or worse? Because they are antisemetic little terrorists or are they acting in self defense from oppression and occupation - oppression and occupation which is well documented and recognized. Did you know Israel has the greenlight to detain Palestenians without a trial if they think they are terrorists/a threat? My goodness that sounds like an unacceptable thing to do but it happens. So what happens when a Palestenian is taken away from their family, detained and held prisoner without a trial, and then raped in prison?

 

What a bunch of garbage. You take the prize of finding the most ridiculous examples of idiots online and posting them here.

[Bob Long]

23 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

What a bunch of garbage. You take the prize of finding the most ridiculous examples of idiots online and posting them here.

 

Apparently it's our fault for not believing everything they post.

[Odd.]

14 hours ago, Super19 said:

What is the appropriate response for this? Can Palestine have their prisoners/hostages freed and enact their right to self defense and eliminating terrorists? 

And before you dismiss this as propaganda, think carefully about how and why you're dismissing it as propaganda and if you find it sketchy we can talk about testimonies and claims made from Oct 7.

Also, if you think this testimony is outside the realm of plausible possibility, think again after watching this:

 

 

Why do so many Palestenian children get detained by Israel? Because they throw rocks or worse? Why are they throwing rocks or worse? Because they are antisemetic little terrorists or are they acting in self defense from oppression and occupation - oppression and occupation which is well documented and recognized. Did you know Israel has the greenlight to detain Palestenians without a trial if they think they are terrorists/a threat? My goodness that sounds like an unacceptable thing to do but it happens. So what happens when a Palestenian is taken away from their family, detained and held prisoner without a trial, and then raped in prison?

Fake news unless it’s an Israeli or a Jewish person who was raped 

 

btw your anti semitic for bringing that up

Edited January 27 by Odd.

[Super19]

 

[Super19]

15 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Fake news unless it’s an Israeli or a Jewish person who was raped 

 

btw your anti semitic for bringing that up

Let's continue giving military aid to the country that stands accused of genocide at the ICJ. And lets call the accusations meritless, even as the top court in the world gives plausible standing for the case which involves the worst thing humanity can do.

 

Let's also take every word the accused state says as truth, we don't even need to ask for evidence - the state aligns with our western values so therefore their words are true.

 

Let's also discredit the UN and cut the funding to the humanitarian aid organization that is supposed to be helping refugees. We are doing everything we can to help the refugees, by cutting off funding for humanitarian aid that is supposed to go to them (but it instead goes to terrorists), and by sending fighter jets and bombs that is used to target the terrorists that live amongst these poor refugees.

 

By cutting off any funding (so as it doesn't fall into the wrong hands) to Gaza, and by sending fighter jets and bombs to the IDF who will then target terrorists (not civillians), humanity will prevail, justice will be restored, and a lasting peace will arise from the rubble. But we just need to wait one generation, for all the traumatized lunatics to be reprogrammed from the terroristic brainwashing.

 

 

I don't think anything I said here anti-semetic?