Hamas attacking Israel

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

For starters the Palestinians elected Hamas a long time ago.

There have not been elections since.

They quash any form of opposition to their rule.

 

As for their support in wartime, it's actually human nature.

 

George H.W. Bush had a low approval rating until the gulf war.

It surged to 64%, then 82%.

 

His sons GW presidency was similar, he started with a higher approval rating 60%, it surged to 85%, peaking at 95%.

After 3 years of war and a shitty economy his approval rating dropped dramatically. 

 

These are leaders of a nation invading another nation. 

 

Gaza is being invaded. 

It's human nature that people will support those who are fighting the people who are oppressing them. 

 

And that is what the Isrealis have been doing to the Gazans.

And the Palestinians in the west bank.

And the Palestinians in east Jerusalem. 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry but there was not going to be a response by Israel if Oct 7 didn't happen, and that attack on Israel is not Israels fault.

[Ilunga]

27 minutes ago, Guntrix said:

X2

 

People still buy the “we’re bombing Palestine to kill Hamas” shrill even after all the innocent deaths (and counting). People need to take into account that for every innocent father, son, mother, daughter Israel kills, they’re potentially creating 5 new Hamas members. Hamas isn’t just physical people; it’s an organization, an idea. Israel needs to stop its offensive.

 

But I think the better question is: why is CDC some major pro-Israel circle jerk? What’s up with that?

 

Yes, I have brought up the fact that you can't kill and Ideology with a gun many times.

I have even posted articles by Isrealis themselves who have stated this.

 

You have to replace Hamas' idea's with better idea's. 

 

You have to give the Palestinians hope for a better future.

[Guntrix]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I'm sorry but there was not going to be a response by Israel if Oct 7 didn't happen, and that attack on Israel is not Israels fault.

I understand the initial offensive (albeit overkill imo), but this stopped being justifiable a long time ago. It’d be interesting to see how many legitimate Hamas members are currently being killed per innocent civilian killed.

Anyone who knows anything about Netanyahu’s ideological beliefs throughout his career understands it’s no longer just about Hamas. IMO, it was never just about Hamas to begin with.

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Guntrix said:

I understand the initial offensive (albeit overkill imo), but this stopped being justifiable a long time ago. It’d be interesting to see how many legitimate Hamas members are currently being killed per innocent civilian killed.

Anyone who knows anything about Netanyahu’s ideological beliefs throughout his career understands it’s no longer just about Hamas. IMO, it was never just about Hamas to begin with.

 

If Israel pulled out tonight, do you think Hamas stops sending rockets? 

[Guntrix]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

If Israel pulled out tonight, do you think Hamas stops sending rockets? 

It would take some time to die down but it eventually will.

 

With that logic, the only solution would be the total annihilation of the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Guntrix said:

It would take some time to die down but it eventually will.

 

And you are basing this on what? Certainly not history.

 

3 minutes ago, Guntrix said:

With that logic, the only solution would be the total annihilation of the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

 

No, that isn't the logical solution whatsoever. You seem to have bought into a very simplistic narrative around this conflict, nothing about it is this binary.

Edited May 9 by Bob Long

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I'm sorry but there was not going to be a response by Israel if Oct 7 didn't happen, and that attack on Israel is not Israels fault.

 

What has this got to do with our conversation about Palestinians choosing/supporting Hamas' as their leaders ?

 

And it wasn't Isreals fault that Hamas' attacked Isreal on October 7.

 

Just like it is not the Palestinians fault that Isreal blockades Gaza.

Steals land in the West Bank and is persecuting Palestinians in east Jerusalem. 

 

And then there is this, the nation state law that was passed.

 

Further persecution of Palestinians/Arabs within Isreal itself.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-19/israel-passes-controversial-jewish-nation-state-law/10014970

 

Jewish people themselves have stated this is a step on the road to arpartheid in Isreal itself.

 

Even the terrorist Menachem Begin ( who founded the Likud party) son Benny Begin " abstained from voting, warning of the party's growing disconnect from human rights ".

[Guntrix]

13 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

And you are basing this on what? Certainly not history.

You’re right, it’s never died down completely. But then again, you can’t expect to have your foot on someone’s neck for decades and expect them not to retaliate.

 

13 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

No, that isn't the logical solution whatsoever. You seen to have bought into a very simplistic narrative around this conflict, nothing about it is this binary.

How would you stop this then? What’s your suggestion? 

I'm not on board with just throwing your hands up in the air and waiting idly while thousands are being killed under the premise that no solution is convincing enough. It screams white and blue goggles.

Edited May 9 by Guntrix

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

What has this got to do with our conversation about Palestinians choosing/supporting Hamas' as their leaders ?

 

A lot. It seems like there's an idea here that Israel is somehow responsible both for their own actions, as well as Hamas, oh and they should also trust that Hamas will stop attacking.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

And it wasn't Isreals fault that Hamas' attacked Isreal on October 7.

 

Just like it is not the Palestinians fault that Isreal blockades Gaza.

Steals land in the West Bank and is persecuting Palestinians in east Jerusalem. 

 

And then there is this, the nation state law that was passed.

 

Further persecution of Palestinians/Arabs within Isreal itself.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-19/israel-passes-controversial-jewish-nation-state-law/10014970

 

Jewish people themselves have stated this is a step on the road to arpartheid in Isreal itself.

 

Even the terrorist Menachem Begin ( who founded the Likud party) son Benny Begin " abstained from voting, warning of the party's growing disconnect from human rights ".

 

I simply don't agree with the apartheid analogy.

[Bob Long]

Just now, Guntrix said:

You’re right, it’s never died down completely. But then again, you can’t expect to have your foot on someone’s neck for decades and expect them not to retaliate.

 

What about being attacked for decades, you seem to have forgotten that part.

 

Just now, Guntrix said:

How would you stop this then? What’s your suggestion? 

 

 

Two state solution, it's the only way.

 

Just now, Guntrix said:

 

I'm not in board with just throwing your hands up in the air and waiting idly under the premise that no solution is convincing enough. It screams white and blue goggles.

 

Put down the Tik Tok. 

[Ilunga]

13 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

If Israel pulled out tonight, do you think Hamas stops sending rockets? 

 

Well for starters, give the Palestinians their land back in the west bank.

Allow them to have east Jerusalem as the capital.

Allow them to form their own nation state.

All these things that the international community wants. 

 

Then if, Hamas' still continues to fire rockets or commits any acts of aggression against Isreal, they will have lost all international support.

 

Isreal will basically have a free hand to do whatever they want.

Which they kinda have been doing anyway, it's just they could finally come out in the open.

[Guntrix]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

What about being attacked for decades, you seem to have forgotten that part.

 

 

Two state solution, it's the only way.

 

 

Put down the Tik Tok. 

Lmao. The United Nations General Assembly literally proposed a two-state solution in 1947. Guess who violated it?

[Bob Long]

Just now, Guntrix said:

Lmao. The United Nations General Assembly literally proposed a two-state solution in 1947. Guess who violated it?

 

Like I said, simplified narrative. But seriously, social media is not helping.

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

A lot. It seems like there's an idea here that Israel is somehow responsible both for their own actions, as well as Hamas, oh and they should also trust that Hamas will stop attacking.

 

 

 

I simply don't agree with the apartheid analogy.

 

Neither did the Afrikaners.

[Guntrix]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

Like I said, simplified narrative. But seriously, social media is not helping.

I work in the humanitarian sector, and have lived for over 5 years in Jordan: one of the places with the highest Palestinian diaspora. I’ve had many conversations like this where pro-Israeli supporters water it down to “it’s not binary” just because it’s the easiest thing to do.

[Bob Long]

Just now, Ilunga said:

 

Neither did the Afrikaners.

 

You are better than this.

[Bob Long]

There's a game fellas, I'm out on this for tonight.

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

You are better than this.

 

I see the same pattern of nationalism. 

A nation going further down the same road. 

 

The Palestinian/Arabs that live in Israel say they face persecution.

That they are treated like second class citizens. 

 

Apartheid

 

" A policy is a policy that is founded on the idea that of seperating people based on racial or ethnic criteria " 

 

And as for the flag stuff.

Here in Australia we fly both the Australian flag, and the flag of first nations people.

From the senate and house chambers, to

 Parliament house.

Everywhere. 

 

We have " welcome to country ceremonies " at political event's, sporting events.

 

 

And what is the famous definition of insanity Jim, trying the same thing over and over again and getting the same result. 

 

Give the Palestinians what they want.

Again if the rockets don't stop, that's definitely the end of any hope for a Palestinian state.

[Ilunga]

17 minutes ago, Guntrix said:

I work in the humanitarian sector, and have lived for over 5 years in Jordan: one of the places with the highest Palestinian diaspora. I’ve had many conversations like this where pro-Israeli supporters water it down to “it’s not binary” just because it’s the easiest thing to do.

 

People say to military personnel, thank you for your service.

 

Well I say to you, we need more humanitarians in the world.

People like you.

 

Thank you for your service.

[TortorellasRant]

The only true solution is that nobody gets the territory. Like unruly children, they both have to lose. Allow nature to reclaim it as a neutral site. How we get there is the million dollar question. Genocidal maniacs, fundamentalist zealots hellbent on destroying each other cannot be neighbors. But it does start with Genocide Joe saying enough is enough and refusing to fund anymore of it.

[RomanPer]

18 hours ago, Guntrix said:

Lmao. The United Nations General Assembly literally proposed a two-state solution in 1947. Guess who violated it?

 

Really curious to know - who was it in your opinion?

[Inkidu]

On 5/8/2024 at 6:43 PM, Guntrix said:

Lmao. The United Nations General Assembly literally proposed a two-state solution in 1947. Guess who violated it?

Shrodinger?

[HarbularyBattery]

On 5/8/2024 at 6:38 PM, Bob Long said:

 

A lot. It seems like there's an idea here that Israel is somehow responsible both for their own actions, as well as Hamas, oh and they should also trust that Hamas will stop attacking.

 

 

 

I simply don't agree with the apartheid analogy.

 

Its basically impossible to argue that whats going on in the occupied territories (The west bank) is not apartheid

 

https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20130304_new_fence_in_hebron

 

^ the street above now allows Palestinians to walk on both sides, but theres many of these streets its not just one. Its basically any area in the vicinity of an illegal Israeli settlement. 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2016-09-10/ty-article/.premium/the-death-throes-of-a-palestinian-neighborhood/0000017f-e7da-df2c-a1ff-ffdb18180000

 

Its not part of Israel, its occupied territory, and within it, the israeli military has chopped it up and set up certain streets Palestinians are not allowed to walk, or not allowed to drive. 

 

If you want to see a video of this actually being enforced, here it is. Israel doesn't deny this or try to hide it at all.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=10155092203769992

 

 

Whats going on inside Israel itself is NOT apartheid, this is the part most people get wrong. 

Edited May 10 by HarbularyBattery

[Canuck Surfer]

On 5/9/2024 at 11:19 AM, Guntrix said:

I understand the initial offensive (albeit overkill imo), but this stopped being justifiable a long time ago. It’d be interesting to see how many legitimate Hamas members are currently being killed per innocent civilian killed.

Anyone who knows anything about Netanyahu’s ideological beliefs throughout his career understands it’s no longer just about Hamas. IMO, it was never just about Hamas to begin with.

 

There is not much debate over this, Netanyahu is a war hawk. Empowers the abusive trends.

 

On 5/9/2024 at 11:38 AM, Guntrix said:

How would you stop this then? What’s your suggestion? 

I'm not on board with just throwing your hands up in the air and waiting idly while thousands are being killed under the premise that no solution is convincing enough. It screams white and blue goggles.

 

 https://youtu.be/7wgHuYbBcfk  You tube vid on current civilian death rates. See below; the regimes (Syria, the various factions that contested its civil war) surrounding Israel have been killing civilians on an ongoing basis. Hamas truces have proposed 5 year weapons down, but not removal of their regimes. Nor have they included more than just over 30 hostages, not even a guarantee the hostages to be released are even still alive.  Hostage taking and abusive military attacks have had civilian casualties that stagger Gaza.  You know this, you were in Jordan? Are these regime's, in your opinion going to represent less civilian deaths in the next 10 years if left in power? 

 

On 5/9/2024 at 11:47 AM, Guntrix said:

I work in the humanitarian sector, and have lived for over 5 years in Jordan: one of the places with the highest Palestinian diaspora. I’ve had many conversations like this where pro-Israeli supporters water it down to “it’s not binary” just because it’s the easiest thing to do.

 

I am off to Jordan next month.  Skipped West Bank or Jerusalem. West Bank a dream visit of mine.

 

What was your observation of civilian death rates in Syria while in Jordan. Or was your work before their civil war 8 & 10 years ago. Was ethnic positioning for power within each competing group not a factor?  Did they not each, well more honestly militant groups from these ethnic groups, try and push all other groups out to gain power? Did they not posture to at least control individual area's as new territory.  My thoughts is the tribal warfare has never stopped, with and without Israel. Won't stop, with or without Israel.

 

My own solutions have always included a full embargo, not invasion of Gaza.  It has also included the international community stepping in without Hamas retaining power. If Hamas had ever had a transition to a peaceful position it could be argued they should vie to be part of representation. That they still wish to retain civilian hostages, not release all, is indicative they want all leverage possible to continue as status quo.  Israel needs to stop, for humanitarian reasons & also has its ghosts now widely being condemned. ie Israel is not innocent. A ceasefire would save lives now.

 

Before, after Oct 7 & now.  This has been my opinion.

 

How do you disempower all such Jihad?  

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

@Guntrix did your work in Jordan not include helping Yazidi, and other groups that faced both ethnic cleansing, sexual violence as one portion?