The controversy of hitting in the NHL - The league has a serious problem

[Miss Korea]

Preamble: This thread is NOT about Nikita Zadorov's suspension.  Don't complain about that here.  This issue is much bigger than just one hit.

 

 

Another nod to one of my favourite YouTube channels, highlighting a generational divide between older players who know how to dish out/absorb hits, and a younger generation that grew up in junior leagues that banned hitting.  We are seeing the result on the ice today.  It seems like there's a match penalty being assessed every single day in the NHL - either a hit from behind or an open ice hit that involves significant head contact.  Even today there was only two games - still saw an ejection between STL-MTL.  Dillon and Zadorov got suspended this week.  Last week it was Gallagher and Trouba.  Hitting is not going to go away in the NHL, even with players getting ejected almost every day.

 

There are certainly younger players who know how to avoid this kind of contact.  McDavid is actually really good at this - you never see him get pasted along the boards or in open ice despite his extremely high speed.  Even when there's physical contact he knows how to push off defenders and that's a skill young forwards simply haven't developed as they've grown up.  These are kids coming out of junior leagues and dealing with hitting for the first time in their lives.  Of course they don't know how to absorb a check.  The irony here is that the move away from hitting in junior was a logical outcome.  Too many kids were developing post-concussion syndrome and hockey was quickly becoming an unsafe sport for the masses.  But now that the vast majority of kids aren't dealing with brain injuries, the ones who make it to the NHL are especially vulnerable.  There's no easy solution.

 

One of the only players on our team who go east-west into the O-zone is Elias Pettersson.  Like Datsyuk, he relies on agility, handling and spacing to beat defenders as opposed to speed.  But how many players in the world have the skillset and talent of a guy like Pettersson or Datsyuk?  Very few, even at the very top.

[Alflives]

There’s avoiding heavy contact and then there’s learning to absorb heavy contact. The glass really moves a lot. Some guys have learned to use the glass to absorb the impact. Others seem to have not. The open ice hits need to have severe suspensions if there is head contact. But players, who carry the puck through the neutral zone need to learn to keep their heads up. Yes McDavid is very good at that skill. But even as great as he is has had close calls. Sadly with guys like him it’s their knees that take the brunt of the force. 

[DrJockitch]

I don’t buy that there are more bad hits, not even close.

There is less hitting and players growing up with less hitting need to open their eyes. 

The Zadorov hit, he was getting low and going straight into the chest, Raymond reached out and lead with the head. Zad is responsible for the hit to the head but that was a bad position to put yourself on in that part of the ice. There should be some shared responsibility there. 
I don’t  accept that the big problem with boxing or MMA is that these athletes are at risk for all the hits to the head, it is kind of the goal of the sport. I feel terrible for those who are paying heavy prices for all those hits to the head but you know you are taking that risk in sports with hitting, including the NFL and NHL. 
Don’t want to take that risk, then don’t.  Nobody is forced t0 be in the NHL, most think it is a privilege despite the (now) clearly known risks.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

9 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

I don’t buy that there are more bad hits, not even close.

There is less hitting and players growing up with less hitting need to open their eyes. 

The Zadorov hit, he was getting low and going straight into the chest, Raymond reached out and lead with the head. Zad is responsible for the hit to the head but that was a bad position to put yourself on in that part of the ice. There should be some shared responsibility there. 
I don’t  accept that the big problem with boxing or MMA is that these athletes are at risk for all the hits to the head, it is kind of the goal of the sport. I feel terrible for those who are paying heavy prices for all those hits to the head but you know you are taking that risk in sports with hitting, including the NFL and NHL. 
Don’t want to take that risk, then don’t.  Nobody is forced t0 be in the NHL, most think it is a privilege despite the (now) clearly known risks.

The hockey equipment today make even the most mundane hockey player into Tony Stark (Iron Man).  Back when Alflives wasn't in the nursing home, when NHLer threw a hit, they often put themselves at risk due to injury.  Today?  With the "armor plating" (ok, I'm exaggerating heh), if you lead with that - you can cause serious damage with minimal risk to yourself.

[bishopshodan]

Seems to me that there are far less targeted hits to the head these days. The NHL is trying but has no consistency at all from the DOPS

I was a big fan of Scott Stevens, but I know better now. I would hate to see that kind of player in todays game.

 

At the end of the day this is a sport that 'allows' bareknuckle fighting...

That's absolutely crazy if we think about it. 

 

Tough stuff. 

Edited February 12 by bishopshodan

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

There’s avoiding heavy contact and then there’s learning to absorb heavy contact. The glass really moves a lot. Some guys have learned to use the glass to absorb the impact. Others seem to have not. The open ice hits need to have severe suspensions if there is head contact. But players, who carry the puck through the neutral zone need to learn to keep their heads up. Yes McDavid is very good at that skill. But even as great as he is has had close calls. Sadly with guys like him it’s their knees that take the brunt of the force. 

 

didn't Cherry warn us about taking hitting out of the younger leagues? 

 

Too much admiring the puck going on. 

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

didn't Cherry warn us about taking hitting out of the younger leagues? 

 

Too much admiring the puck going on. 

Yup. All levels of boys’ hockey should have the elite divisions playing full contact. If boys don’t want contact then they play in the lower divisions. It would be skin to making all football leagues touch up to a certain age. It’s stupid. Have elite players in contact leagues and the rest play in non contact. Hell we had fighting as little guys. But we learned how to fight and take hits because it we had to. Alf would for sure have chosen the non contact and no fighting divisions if they were available. Do just have both and let the kids pick which they prefer. 

[Miss Korea]

46 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

didn't Cherry warn us about taking hitting out of the younger leagues? 

 

Too much admiring the puck going on. 

 

Right, but there were way too many kids getting their entire lives fucked up because of repeated concussions and other major injuries.  Im not just talking about the NHL players - I'm talking about players in the thousands who had to quit the sport because their brains were turning to mush.

 

As a whole, if ice hockey is to survive and flourish in the modern age, you have to factor in play safety.  The irony of all this is that if the NHL is to survive, you probably need hits along with the blazing fast speed.

[Miss Korea]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

There’s avoiding heavy contact and then there’s learning to absorb heavy contact. The glass really moves a lot. Some guys have learned to use the glass to absorb the impact. Others seem to have not. The open ice hits need to have severe suspensions if there is head contact. But players, who carry the puck through the neutral zone need to learn to keep their heads up. Yes McDavid is very good at that skill. But even as great as he is has had close calls. Sadly with guys like him it’s their knees that take the brunt of the force. 

 

McDavid is a player who knows how to take hits along the boards, as well as avoid open ice hits as he cuts across the middle.  He has been on the receiving end of some minor knee-on-knee collisions but they were due to opponents sticking their knees out.  That type of hit has largely been purged from the league over many decades.  They still happen, but it's no longer a common form of stopping opponents.  Every hockey player knows that's something you just don't do - like flying elbows.

 

You always talk as though you actually want some of these guys to get injured.  I've seen you on record gloat about certain guys when they do get hurt.  That's fucking disgraceful and you should feel ashamed for that.

[Bob Long]

33 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

Right, but there were way too many kids getting their entire lives fucked up because of repeated concussions and other major injuries.  Im not just talking about the NHL players - I'm talking about players in the thousands who had to quit the sport because their brains were turning to mush.

 

As a whole, if ice hockey is to survive and flourish in the modern age, you have to factor in play safety.  The irony of all this is that if the NHL is to survive, you probably need hits along with the blazing fast speed.

 

I think Alf has the right idea. Allow hits in a single elite tier.

[-dlc-]

I think you're missing some important points.

 

First of all, the game moves at a much higher speed than it used to. So it's not necessarily that guys don't know how to hit or absorb hits....there's more room for error with the fast pace of the game. High speed/high impact stuff.

 

"Kids are just now experiencing repeated concussions"....it's always been a thing but we now know how devastating post concussion syndrome is so hits to the head have been amplified and addressed more now.  More prevalent because they're looked at more closely.

 

And re McDavid knowing how to take hits and knee on knees....it's luck of the draw more than anything. It's not that he's ultra special in that regard. He's also pretty elusive on skates to it's harder to hit him as a moving target. This comment really answers itself....he doesn't get pasted because of his extremely high speed (not despite it).

 

3 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

you never see him get pasted along the boards or in open ice despite his extremely high speed.

NHL enforcers tend to die 10 years earlier than other players and that information really tended to up the ante.

 

No matter how "experienced" you are in receiving a hit, there's no telling when one will result in an injury.

[Alflives]

34 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

McDavid is a player who knows how to take hits along the boards, as well as avoid open ice hits as he cuts across the middle.  He has been on the receiving end of some minor knee-on-knee collisions but they were due to opponents sticking their knees out.  That type of hit has largely been purged from the league over many decades.  They still happen, but it's no longer a common form of stopping opponents.  Every hockey player knows that's something you just don't do - like flying elbows.

 

You always talk as though you actually want some of these guys to get injured.  I've seen you on record gloat about certain guys when they do get hurt.  That's fucking disgraceful and you should feel ashamed for that.

Watched the greatest player I’ve ever seen, Bobby Orr, take knee on knee hits. It’s (sadly) what happens to guys who carry the puck at fast speed through high collision zones. It’s likely going to happen to McDavid and Makar and all superstars who rely on carrying the puck (at high speed through collision zones) for their greatness. Don’t want it to happen but it happened to Orr (Bure too) and it likely happens to these guys too. 
My guess is you’re younger and didn’t watch the greats play who were puck carriers. But there were players who actually targeted those greats’ knees. Hilliard Graves (a Canuck) was really nasty and Brian marchmant (an Oiler) was really bad too, but a bit later on. And before them there were lots of others who did the same. They’d drag a leg or flex their leg. It was ugly. It’s not nearly so bad now, but it still happens. 

[cripplereh]

There were way bigger hits in the past then now.

 

Only thing different now is the padding being so strong that elbow pads and other padding will hurt players more now then ever.

 

If they made the padding softer less players getting hurt.Plys players are getting bigger and stronger then in the past.

[Miss Korea]

13 minutes ago, cripplereh said:

There were way bigger hits in the past then now.

 

Only thing different now is the padding being so strong that elbow pads and other padding will hurt players more now then ever.

 

If they made the padding softer less players getting hurt.Plys players are getting bigger and stronger then in the past.

 

The NHL is getting taller but also lighter.  The trends are quite staggering.  I wonder how much the height trend gets skewed by goalies gecoming freakishly tall now (Saros a notable exception).

 

 

 

[Alflives]

12 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

 

The NHL is getting taller but also lighter.  The trends are quite staggering.  I wonder how much the height trend gets skewed by goalies gecoming freakishly tall now (Saros a notable exception).

 

 

 

Players got heavier while skate and ice tech advanced. The game got faster too because the skate and ice tech allowed it. Goalies were smaller, with odd exceptions like Dryden, because their equipment would get soaked with their sweat and water from the ice. They wore smaller pads because of that. 
Now players are trending lighter because they need to play at 100% for their entire shift, especially wingers. It’s a sprint, so leaner is better. 

[nux_win]

Maybe the players don't know how to hit or absorb a hit as well these days but I see it as more than that.  It's a problem with officiating.  The players, and us fans, don't know what a penalty is anymore because of inconsistent refereeing.  And I strongly suspect that the inconsistent refereeing comes from that extremely dubious idea of "game management". 

 

Ever since the NHL gave up on fair play and instead started to use refereeing as a means of enhancing the perceived entertainment value of the game in order to attract non hockey fans (i.e. game management) nobody knows what the definition of a penalty is anymore.  And to make it worse, it all changes yet again when the playoffs come around. 

 

Also refereeing changes based on what part of the season it is, who is involved, what the score is, the time of the game, what the referee had for lunch, and more.  All of those are not valid reasons to base calling penalties on and yet we have gotten so used to it that nobody seems to object.

 

The NHL always denies this but every single person who watches hockey knows that it is a fact that the definition of a penalty changes for the playoffs and for other invalid reasons.  The NFL works very hard to keep officiating the same in pre-season, regular season, and playoffs, why can't the NHL?  (the NFL has other problems but at least they try to keep their officiating consistent)  A big part of the problem is the NHL's dishonesty and greed when it comes to officiating.  They are dishonest about how they apply penalties and greedy because they won't just allow the game to happen the way it does, they have to "manage" it.  Billionaire owners who don't give a crap about hockey but are just using it to pad their wallets is the main problem here as I see it.  Since when do rich people leave their investments to chance?  Most hockey fans have some vague idea of "game management" but the NHL won't come clean about it.

 

In my honest opinion, it's the NHL's dishonesty and corruption that are ruining the game that some of us love and have always loved.  GCG!

[Roger Neilsons Towel]

This is what happens when you take hitting out of Hockey at developing ages. Guys don’t know how to avoid/take a hit anymore. Too much skating around with their heads down. When I was growing up the onus was on us to keep our heads up and keep it on a swivel out there. Not be looking at the puck or admiring a pass. That’s a recipe for disaster. 

[DrJockitch]

8 hours ago, Alflives said:

Players got heavier while skate and ice tech advanced. The game got faster too because the skate and ice tech allowed it. Goalies were smaller, with odd exceptions like Dryden, because their equipment would get soaked with their sweat and water from the ice. They wore smaller pads because of that. 
Now players are trending lighter because they need to play at 100% for their entire shift, especially wingers. It’s a sprint, so leaner is better. 

Don’t want to get too deep into the sports physiology but generally no, for sprints it is pure power and usually bigger is better to a certain point. The nature of a skate blade on ice mitigates this size specialization compared to say sprinters or football players but even then,  look at sprinting speed skaters legs

For the current era of the  NHL size is important but quickness is more important. You get more into power to weight ratios here as well as developing an aerobic base. 

As a team game with a number of different roles there is no ideal body type. Part of what makes this game great is the Quinn Hughes’ dancing around the big lugs. 

Edited February 12 by DrJockitch

[IBatch]

23 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

didn't Cherry warn us about taking hitting out of the younger leagues? 

 

Too much admiring the puck going on. 

Yes he did, as have others.   

 

6 hours ago, Roger Neilsons Towel said:

This is what happens when you take hitting out of Hockey at developing ages. Guys don’t know how to avoid/take a hit anymore. Too much skating around with their heads down. When I was growing up the onus was on us to keep our heads up and keep it on a swivel out there. Not be looking at the puck or admiring a pass. That’s a recipe for disaster. 

And if you learn to stick handle with your head up, you see the ice better.    Trouba shouldn't be faulted for destroying guys cleanly. 

[IBatch]

On 2/11/2024 at 10:07 PM, Miss Korea said:

 

The NHL is getting taller but also lighter.  The trends are quite staggering.  I wonder how much the height trend gets skewed by goalies gecoming freakishly tall now (Saros a notable exception).

 

 

 

THN touched on this a couple times.  The average NHL skater- non goalie, has dipped  all the way back to late 80's (88-89) in recent years, and of course trending down since the lockout.    Simple translation, skill is back.   No matter the size.   Good for the game too.    

 

So yes, the goalies for sure have skewed things.    If you look at the weights, it's pretty darn close which makes sense, you can't have a heavy goalie (well Holtby and a couple outliers in the past have been on the chunky side, Lehner, and a NYI guy I think Greiss), for the most part, they are lean.   6'1" used to be a taller goalie.   Dryden the original "Giraffe" was only 6'3", that's a bit on the small side these days.    Average goalie height, has trended way up. 

 

There's a book done by the same gap as James and the Giant Peach, about the fattest kid in school finding his lane as a goalie.  Stick him in net, and absolutely nothing to shoot at.    During the Garth Snowman days and beyond (Marktsrom, Bishop, Rinne - 6'6 -6'7.5), at times it makes me chuckle.    Met Demko, he's a lean tall dude (210 is a beanpole at his height), not like the goalies I was used to seeing growing up.   Some were my size when I was in grade 5 or so.    Thought that was cool too.   Broduer, and later Irbe and Vernon.    So quick.   Furh was the prototypical goalie size, around 5'11.   

 

For sure the leagues smaller then it was in the 90's and 2000's as far as forwards go.   Defenseman too.    Small PMD's have a lane now, thankfully it gives guys like QHs and Makar a chance to shine.   They don't have to be like Chris Chelios.  

 

Edit:  It's also great for the sport.   Young kids these days don't need to fret over their next growth spurt.   Just play their game, there isn't that massive barrier (pun intended),  blocking their chances of getting drafted.   

Edited February 13 by IBatch

[Miss Korea]

22 hours ago, IBatch said:

THN touched on this a couple times.  The average NHL skater- non goalie, has dipped  all the way back to late 80's (88-89) in recent years, and of course trending down since the lockout.    Simple translation, skill is back.   No matter the size.   Good for the game too.    

 

So yes, the goalies for sure have skewed things.    If you look at the weights, it's pretty darn close which makes sense, you can't have a heavy goalie (well Holtby and a couple outliers in the past have been on the chunky side, Lehner, and a NYI guy I think Greiss), for the most part, they are lean.   6'1" used to be a taller goalie.   Dryden the original "Giraffe" was only 6'3", that's a bit on the small side these days.    Average goalie height, has trended way up. 

 

There's a book done by the same gap as James and the Giant Peach, about the fattest kid in school finding his lane as a goalie.  Stick him in net, and absolutely nothing to shoot at.    During the Garth Snowman days and beyond (Marktsrom, Bishop, Rinne - 6'6 -6'7.5), at times it makes me chuckle.    Met Demko, he's a lean tall dude (210 is a beanpole at his height), not like the goalies I was used to seeing growing up.   Some were my size when I was in grade 5 or so.    Thought that was cool too.   Broduer, and later Irbe and Vernon.    So quick.   Furh was the prototypical goalie size, around 5'11.   

 

For sure the leagues smaller then it was in the 90's and 2000's as far as forwards go.   Defenseman too.    Small PMD's have a lane now, thankfully it gives guys like QHs and Makar a chance to shine.   They don't have to be like Chris Chelios.  

 

Edit:  It's also great for the sport.   Young kids these days don't need to fret over their next growth spurt.   Just play their game, there isn't that massive barrier (pun intended),  blocking their chances of getting drafted.   

 

So now we are coming back to orginal premise, then: are today's young hockey stars prepared to deal with the physical transition to the NHL?  Do they know how to hit properly and do they know how to get hit properly?  There is no doubt that skill is the name of the game in today's NHL.  But hitting hasn't gone anywhere.  And the problem is that older players who know how to hit are still clobbering opponents in open ice.  And on the boards...?  Less experienced players aren't bracing themselves for contact, leaving them vulnerable.  

 

Not to say that kids should be giving each other concussions at such a young age.  That is harmful to the grassroots growth of the sport.  The problem is that these constant ejections and match penalties are harmful to the growth of the sport at the top level.