Hamas attacking Israel

[Elias Pettersson]

4 minutes ago, Gurn said:

Thank you for your calm, measured response; it's very christian of you.

 

You literally called Heaven bullshit.  It may be bullshit but it may not be either.  Like I said, if you're an atheist good for you, I don't really care.  But don't tell religious people not to believe in God or Heaven, or call it bullshit.  We have a right to our beliefs.  Over 5 billion people will tell you the same thing.

 

I've had to read on this forum about how all religious people are whack jobs and they are the cause of all wars and everything bad.  This isn't true.  Most religious people are kind hearted loving people who are the most caring people on earth.  They don't let religion interfere in anyone else's life.  Just because there are religious whack jobs out there who cause problems, doesn't mean every religious person is like that.  Most aren't.  There are just as many atheist whack jobs out there too.

 

I really didn't mean to snap at you to be totally honest with you, so as a Roman Catholic, I do apologize for that...

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Sorry; you cannot accomplish understanding of those you have conflict telling them what they should believe. That their culture is unimportant.

 

It is very selfish suggesting all people have to do is 'listen to Black Elk.' The worlds' problems will go away? This actually sounds like why wars occur over religion. 

 

 

You bet I can tell people that their beliefs suck, if acting on behalf of their beliefs impacts others in a negative manner. 

 

That's why we all condemn Hamas'.

They are using violence in the name of their beliefs.

 

That's why some of us condemn Israeli settlers, they use violence in the name of their beliefs.

Also taking land that belongs to someone else in the name of their beliefs.

 

As for these " sacred " sites in Jerusalem.

The sheer amount of human suffering that has been caused in their name over the Millennia gives me the right, to voice my " belief ", that the sanctity of human life outweighs the sanctity of those supposed " sacred " sites.

 

You have failed to grasp the meaning of Black Elk's words, especially when one considers them in the context of the American first nations people.  

 

Did you note he was their spiritual leader ?

He was not their religious leader, first nations people did not have religion. 

 

Their " sacred " sites  were the mountains, the plains, the natural world.

They not only had a spiritual connection with the earth, they had a spiritual connection with the flora and fauna they shared the earth with.

 

Do you ever wonder why places like Australia and North America were pristine environments when the British and Europeans first came to these places ?

It was because of the spiritual connection first nations people had with the land, and the flora and fauna.

 

And before you state that the Israelis and the Palestinians have a spiritual connection to Israel/Palestine, they don't. 

They have a religious/ historical connection.

 

Religion and spirituality are totally different things. 

 

So yes I do believe that Black Elk's words are truly wise.

 

That all land/ nature is precious.

That all the species of flora and fauna play a distinct role, the bio diversity of our planet. 

 

As I have stated before, more wise words from a first nations elder 

 

 

" We don't inherit the earth, we borrow it from our children " 

 

Chief Seattle 

[Ilunga]

6 hours ago, Taxi said:

In not so surprising news, it turns out the Hamas casualty estimates were wrong. The UN approximately halves its estimates for women and children killed:

 

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/united-nations-halves-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza

 

 

No major announcement to accompany the change though. Just about 12,000 women and children coming back to life.

 

Maybe they should have talked to the actual scientific institutions, people from Johns Hopkins and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. 

 

" The Science is clear: Over 30,000 people have died in Gaza "

 

https://time.com/6909636/gaza-death-toll/

 

" Actually the next numbers are conservative. The science is extremely clear. " 

 

In December the medial journal, The Lancet critiques of the death surveillance process done by extremely experienced scholars at Johns Hopkins and the London School of  Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. Both concluded that the Gazan numbers were plausible and credible, albeit by different techniques and logic. "

 

The article then goes on to explain those techniques. 

 

Cut to the chase 

 

" Their are certain building blocks of society that require agreement for us to work well collectively.  Society is weaker and discourse less productive if we cannot agree on at least a few basic things. In the case of Gaza, acknowledging that there was an appalling and I extremely deadly attack on October 7th, and that over 30,000 Gazans have died since, mostly women and children, seems like the most basic cornerstones of reality on which to move toward constructive discussion and resolution. " 

 

The medical journal, The Lancet, the information from which that article was based on. 

 

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-lancet/

 

Factual reporting

Very High 

 

Pro Science 

 

These sources consist of legitimate science or are evidence based through the use of credible scientific sourcing. Legitimate follows the scientific method, is unbiased and does not use emotional words.

 

Bias Rating 

Pro Science

 

Factual Reporting 

Very High 

 

MBFC CREDIBILITY RATING 

High Credibility 

 

 

Here is that Lancet article.

 

" No evidence of inflated mortality reporting from the Gaza ministry of health "

 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext

 

 

So let's look at this closer shall we.

 

Why has the UN revised it numbers.

 

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-women-children-death-toll-1.7203167

 

" There's another 10,000 plus bodies that still have to be identified "  Haq told reporters in New York on Monday, " and so then the details of those - which of those are children - which of those are women - that will be re- established once the full indentification process is complete. "

 

" Unites Nations trans in Gaza are unable to independently verify these figures, given the prevailing situation on the ground and the sheer number of the fatalities " Erik Kaneko, an OCHA Spokesperson said in an email to CBC News. 

 

She confirmed that the state of many of the bodies makes it difficult to identify them. "

 

And then we have the from 2 hours ago 

 

" UN Denies Death Toll of Women and Children has Been Revised Down "

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/13/gaza-ministry-revises-figures-for-women-and-children-killed

 

 

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

we were talking about this Friday and Saturday too. It is also worth noting that a teenage boy who is with Hamas will be listed as a child by Hamas in the reports to the Palestinian Authority, who then report to the UN, despite that child also being a combatant.  I think we are looking at a third of the casualties being purely civilian over all of this, and thankfully the %'s of civilian deaths are dropping by the day. While this is deadly serious, it is also worth noting that at least a significant portion of those civilians, while non combatants, provide aid and succor to Hamas. Talking about wives and kids of combatants in this sense. Early in the conflict I saw more than one video of Hamas fighters surrounded by women, my guess is wives, and while surrounded by these unarmed people, the Hamas fighters would shoot over their heads at IDF forces. Any action to take out the hostile threat would then likely take out the civilians surrounding him. It is an icky subject for sure, as is the whole thread here about what is happening.

 

War sucks, don't start one. 

 

5 hours ago, Sharpshooter said:

“What is Jerusalem? Your holy palaces lie over the Jewish temple that the Romans pulled down. The Muslim places of worship lie over yours. Which is more holy?”

 

“The wall? The Mosque? The Sepulchre? Who has claim? No-one has claim.”

 

“All have claim!”

 

I wish we applied that same sense of " sanctity " we apply to these supposedly holy/sacred sites, to the planet we live on. 

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Me and like 5 billion other people think you are full of dog poo.  Also, we will do what we want with our beliefs, just like you can do whatever the fuck you want with yours.  What gives you the right, or anyone else, to tell another human being what to believe?  My mind, my choice...

 

Also, please prove that God doesn't exist...  Oh wait, that is another thread, nevermind...

 

A person has the right to tell people what they to do with their beliefs, once those beliefs start impacting others in a negative manner. 

 

Apart from that as I have always stated, I will defend your right to do whatever you want, whenever you want. 

So long as you don't fuck with others in the process. 

 

Be a furry, a pagan, an athiest, religious whatever.

Just don't fuck with others.

 

 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

You literally called Heaven bullshit.  It may be bullshit but it may not be either.  Like I said, if you're an atheist good for you, I don't really care.  But don't tell religious people not to believe in God or Heaven, or call it bullshit.  We have a right to our beliefs.  Over 5 billion people will tell you the same thing.

 

I've had to read on this forum about how all religious people are whack jobs and they are the cause of all wars and everything bad.  This isn't true.  Most religious people are kind hearted loving people who are the most caring people on earth.  They don't let religion interfere in anyone else's life.  Just because there are religious whack jobs out there who cause problems, doesn't mean every religious person is like that.  Most aren't.  There are just as many atheist whack jobs out there too.

 

I really didn't mean to snap at you to be totally honest with you, so as a Roman Catholic, I do apologize for that...

 

As you know, I am agnostic.

 

I have defended religious people in the god thread.

 

I call some really good people my friends.

The best people I have ever known were religious.

 

My parents. 

 

For putting up with me alone they deserve " saint hood "

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

5 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

You bet I can tell people that their beliefs suck, if acting on behalf of their beliefs impacts others in a negative manner. 

 

That's why we all condemn Hamas'.

They are using violence in the name of their beliefs.

 

That's why some of us condemn Israeli settlers, they use violence in the name of their beliefs.

Also taking land that belongs to someone else in the name of their beliefs.

 

As for these " sacred " sites in Jerusalem.

The sheer amount of human suffering that has been caused in their name over the Millennia gives me the right, to voice my " belief ", that the sanctity of human life outweighs the sanctity of those supposed " sacred " sites.

 

You have failed to grasp the meaning of Black Elk's words, especially when one considers them in the context of the American first nations people.  

 

Did you note he was their spiritual leader ?

He was not their religious leader, first nations people did not have religion. 

 

Their " sacred " sites  were the mountains, the plains, the natural world.

They not only had a spiritual connection with the earth, they had a spiritual connection with the flora and fauna they shared the earth with.

 

Do you ever wonder why places like Australia and North America were pristine environments when the British and Europeans first came to these places ?

It was because of the spiritual connection first nations people had with the land, and the flora and fauna.

 

And before you state that the Israelis and the Palestinians have a spiritual connection to Israel/Palestine, they don't. 

They have a religious/ historical connection.

 

Religion and spirituality are totally different things. 

 

So yes I do believe that Black Elk's words are truly wise.

 

That all land/ nature is precious.

That all the species of flora and fauna play a distinct role, the bio diversity of our planet. 

 

As I have stated before, more wise words from a first nations elder 

 

 

" We don't inherit the earth, we borrow it from our children " 

 

Chief Seattle 

 

To quote you; ''As I have stated before;''

 

You still won't end any war telling people what their opinion should be.  Give them room for their opinion. Make access to sites important rather than restrict them.  That is treating other people, as you wish to be treated.  One of your popular other phrases. 

 

And before you state that the Israelis and the Palestinians have a spiritual connection to Israel/Palestine, they don't. 

They have a religious/ historical connection.

 

How is that treating people how they want to be treated? Yes condemn Israeli settlers for violence. Same for Hamas. 

 

For people who believe in religion; its spiritual. Regardless, important to them. So share it. Except when it is damaging, limiting to others. Then, perhaps, people don't have to be at war. I have religious family who get comfort from prayer. It takes courtesy to pay respect for people and their beliefs.  I get comfort visiting my dad's grave, from visiting his old homestead. Is that spiritual, or historical? I believe it is both; like eating traditional food at a funeral. Or Christmas. Its all culture. 

 

We talkin bout practice together now! 

 

 

[Ilunga]

17 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

To quote you; ''As I have stated before;''

 

You still won't end any war telling people what their opinion should be.  Give them room for their opinion. Make access to sites important rather than restrict them.  That is treating other people, as you wish to be treated.  One of your popular other phrases. 

 

And before you state that the Israelis and the Palestinians have a spiritual connection to Israel/Palestine, they don't. 

They have a religious/ historical connection.

 

How is that treating people how they want to be treated? Yes condemn Israeli settlers for violence. Same for Hamas. 

 

For people who believe in religion; its spiritual. Regardless, important to them. So share it. Except when it is damaging, limiting to others. Then, perhaps, people don't have to be at war. I have religious family who get comfort from prayer. It takes courtesy to pay respect for people and their beliefs.  I get comfort visiting my dad's grave, from visiting his old homestead. Is that spiritual, or historical? I believe it is both; like eating traditional food at a funeral. Or Christmas. Its all culture. 

 

We talkin bout practice together now! 

 

 

 

I stated, I treat people as I would like to be treated.

Not how they would like to be treated. 

 

I will treat people the way they like to be treated if they don't fuck with others.

 

Hamas' has not, and does not treat the Isrealis, the way they wish to be treated, they fuck with them, so I say fuck them.

 

Israel has not, and is not treating Palestinians the way they wish to be treated, they fuck with them, so I say fuck them.

 

If a person's beliefs, in this case religious beliefs, are impacting others in a negative manner, damaging or limiting them as you put it, as they are in this case, then I have the right to tell them, fuck their beliefs.  

 

Fuck those " sacred " sites that have been the cause of so much human suffering.

And they " export " their suffering to other parts of the world.

 

My mum and dad were very religious.

Not only did they not fuck with others, they helped others.

I to find great comfort going to their grave every few months, putting fresh flowers on it and having a chat. 

One can describe that experience in any way they wish.

It is a very personal experience.

One that doesn't involve fucking with others.

 

Christmas is a festival the Christians appropriated from the Romans.

It was a festival called Saturnalia.

It was first celebrated on December 17, and then was extended to 3, then 7 days.

 

It made conversion to Christianity easier. 

 

Sadly I have been to a few funerals in the last year or so.

If you call finger food traditional Aussie funeral food, then that is what we were served.  

 

Again, what has any of this have to do with those " sacred " sites in Jerusalem.

And peoples willingness, not only kill for them, but also kill in their name ?

 

Again I say human life is sacred. 

I say we should view the planet, and the flora and fauna we share this planet with as precious things. 

 

We are trashing the planet we live on.

Our actions are causing an global extinction rate that been labelled as unparalleled, and people are fighting over some buildings ?

 

While not exactly pertinent, this Cree proverb fits my narrative

 

" When the last tree is cut down, the last fish caught, the last river poisoned, only then will we realise that we can't eat money "

 

 

[Bob Long]

10 hours ago, Gurn said:

Thank you for your calm, measured response; it's very christian of you.

 

Funniest part is, he has to forgive you.

[Gnarcore]

10 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

You literally called Heaven bullshit.  It may be bullshit but it may not be either.  Like I said, if you're an atheist good for you, I don't really care.  But don't tell religious people not to believe in God or Heaven, or call it bullshit.  We have a right to our beliefs.  Over 5 billion people will tell you the same thing.

 

I've had to read on this forum about how all religious people are whack jobs and they are the cause of all wars and everything bad.  This isn't true.  Most religious people are kind hearted loving people who are the most caring people on earth.  They don't let religion interfere in anyone else's life.  Just because there are religious whack jobs out there who cause problems, doesn't mean every religious person is like that.  Most aren't.  There are just as many atheist whack jobs out there too.

 

I really didn't mean to snap at you to be totally honest with you, so as a Roman Catholic, I do apologize for that...

And as it is a belief people have a right to call it bullshit. 

[Elias Pettersson]

50 minutes ago, Gnarcore said:

And as it is a belief people have a right to call it bullshit. 

Sure. And I have a right to call your atheist belief bullshit too. 

[bishopshodan]

15 hours ago, Gurn said:

Sad stuff, all this fighting over so called holy land.

apparently god doesn't really give a shit; -or doesn't exist, which is much more likely.

never has, never will.

 

Time for people to give up on this 'going to better place' bullshit, and just be better to each other while we are here.

 

This is such a great sentiment.

 

If we could just focus on the bolded. 'Here' is all we have and it could be soo beautiful if we could come together. 

 

Just to touch on the point made by the person that griped at you...

Just because a large chunk/ majority believes something, doesn't make it correct ( he loves his polls).

For example. Humans once thought our planet was the center of the universe. If you did not the Catholic Chuch would kill you, as it was heretical.

 

So many wars, so many dead over religion. 

 

... watch what you believe. 

 

 

[Bob Long]

8 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

This is such a great sentiment.

 

If we could just focus on the bolded. 'Here' is all we have and it could be soo beautiful if we could come together. 

 

Just to touch on the point made by the person that griped at you...

Just because a large chunk/ majority believes something, doesn't make it correct ( he loves his polls).

For example. Humans once thought our planet was the center of the universe. If you did not the Catholic Chuch would kill you, as it was heretical.

 

So many wars, so many dead over religion. 

 

... watch what you believe. 

 

 

 

religion per se isn't the issue, its when these guys try to make their religion your religion.

 

Its always been that way, people sniff a little bit of power from group think and then try to steamroll others. Hamas is doing it now. The crusades did it then. The religious right in the west is more powerful than ever. 

 

None of it has to do with god or any actual belief, its about control. 

 

[bishopshodan]

11 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

religion per se isn't the issue, its when these guys try to make their religion your religion.

 

Its always been that way, people sniff a little bit of power from group think and then try to steamroll others. Hamas is doing it now. The crusades did it then. The religious right in the west is more powerful than ever. 

 

None of it has to do with god or any actual belief, its about control. 

 

 

Yes. When I say religion, I mean organised religion. Big groups of tribal persons telling you how to live.

I dont really mean faith.

 

I am a solipsistic person that believes consciousness IS the universe...so...I have my own daft thoughts. However, again, when there is massive power groups based on unprovable tales from a time long passed...well, blood, death, righteousness...in the name of! ensues.

 

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Yes. When I say religion, I mean organised religion. Big groups of tribal persons telling you how to live.

I dont really mean faith.

 

I am a solipsistic person that believes consciousness IS the universe...so...I have my own daft thoughts. However, again, when there is massive power groups based on unprovable tales from a time long passed...well, blood, death, righteousness...in the name of! ensues.

 

 

I believe in a forgiving, peace loving god, and I'll kill you to prove it. That is what these people are. 

[Gnarcore]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Sure. And I have a right to call your atheist belief bullshit too. 

Exactly. But I never stated I am an athiest. 

I am an ordained minister in the Latter Day Church of the Dude. Zero child molestation allegations thus far so it is going well! 

https://dudeism.com/

An ancient philosophy that preaches non-preachiness, practices as little as possible. 

 

Edited May 14 by Gnarcore

[HarbularyBattery]

33 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

religion per se isn't the issue, its when these guys try to make their religion your religion.

 

Its always been that way, people sniff a little bit of power from group think and then try to steamroll others. Hamas is doing it now. The crusades did it then. The religious right in the west is more powerful than ever. 

 

None of it has to do with god or any actual belief, its about control. 

 

this is right on the fucking money

 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

37 minutes ago, Gnarcore said:

Exactly. But I never stated I am an athiest. 

I am an ordained minister in the Latter Day Church of the Dude. Zero child molestation allegations thus far so it is going well! 

https://dudeism.com/

An ancient philosophy that preaches non-preachiness, practices as little as possible. 

 

 

Congratulations on being an ordained minister.  I'm sure the "dude" will treat you well.  Maybe it's all bullshit, maybe it isn't.  At least you believe in something...

[Bob Long]

Not believing in a sky fairy that gives permission to kill, doesn't mean that you don't believe in something.

[HarbularyBattery]

8 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

Not believing in a sky fairy that gives permission to kill, doesn't mean that you don't believe in something.

 

people also forget as social creatures were a very tribal species. problems arent inherent with religion, its more about just being a point people can use to entrench ingroup/outgroup tribalism

 

ill always cheer when people remind that we're all human beings, basically wired the same way internally, and we all basically want the same things (food, water, smiles and laughter, safety for ourselves and loved ones)

[bishopshodan]

13 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

Not believing in a sky fairy that gives permission to kill, doesn't mean that you don't believe in something.

 

I dont know how more people dont call themselves agnostic.

 

There is just no evidence to support if there is, or if there isn't. It must be a maybe.

[HarbularyBattery]

@Bob Longi was thinking about this today too, i feel like sports are so powerful because it gives us an outlet for that instinctual tribalism and also conveniently helps us cross the "toxic" tribal lines (religion, race, etc.). People let go of their bigotry and feel camraderie with eachother regardless of religion and race in the context of sport.

 

sport really does bring us all together.

[Bob Long]

6 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

@Bob Longi was thinking about this today too, i feel like sports are so powerful because it gives us an outlet for that instinctual tribalism and also conveniently helps us cross the "toxic" tribal lines (religion, race, etc.). People let go of their bigotry and feel camraderie with eachother regardless of religion and race in the context of sport.

 

sport really does bring us all together.

 

It does, it's one of the reasons I really like the Olympics. Religion rarely lets women have full participation but sports sometimes does.

[Canuck Surfer]

3 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

religion per se isn't the issue, its when these guys try to make their religion your religion.

 

Its always been that way, people sniff a little bit of power from group think and then try to steamroll others. Hamas is doing it now. The crusades did it then. The religious right in the west is more powerful than ever. 

 

None of it has to do with god or any actual belief, its about control. 

 

 

2 hours ago, HarbularyBattery said:

this is right on the fucking money

 

 

 

Absolutely dead on. Bastardization of religion for power is as old as war.

 

Yet peace comes when you get the masses to separate their beliefs from any control freaks. Do we have to convince them religion is not real? 

 

Or just respect their space.   

[bishopshodan]

11 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I stated, I treat people as I would like to be treated.

Not how they would like to be treated. 

 

The bolded is the platinum rule.

 

I learned about it from a high-end HR exec, we poached her from Disney when she was in Van setting up a tech division for them. 

I struggled with the Platinum rule as I thought that the Golden rule covered it. Respect. 

 

But it did make me think...

 

IF in my house I dont mind that people wear their shoes then should I be able to wear my shoes in thiers, right? even if they dont like it? I mean, I am treating them the way that I expect to be treated... 

It's silly though, because my example is absent of 'respect' which is really what we mean when we say 'golden rule'. To respect each other.  But, maybe it gives a thought to the idea that we can all have some ignorance. Even if we dont understand, and even if it would be ok for us, maybe its not ok for 'them'.

 

Anyway, just popped into my head and not a comment on the discussion you were having. Hope you are well, man. Love readin your contributions. 

Edited May 14 by bishopshodan