RANT: The state of hockey development in Canada is completely broken, and national pride/arrogance is preventing us from fixing it

[Miss Korea]

DISCLAIMER: This is not a post-mortem of the World Juniors.  It wasn't the best team and didn't have the best chemistry, but there's more to it than one bad tournament.  After all, we did win the last two years before this.  Again: THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE WORLD JUNIORS.

TL;DR - The Canadian hockey system is good for the very top prospects, and practically nobody else.  It is disjointed, corrupt, and old-fashioned, and is getting completely outclassed by the development system in the United States.

I've put up a couple topics about how a Team USA could potentially beat Team Canada in an international tournament.  The argument would often boil down to the development process employed by both hockey bodies, Hockey Canada and USA Hockey.  Ultimately, even Canadians are choosing to develop their game in the United States.  From Nieuwendyk to Toews/Turris, and now Makar, Fantilli, Celebrini, etc., more and more Canadians are bolting for the USHL/NCAA because it's better than anything CHL can offer.

The NCAA route has become more attractive for a bunch of reasons.  It gives you four more years of development in a system that actually focuses on improving your game as an adult.  You get scholarships to high-end schools that you can utilize after you're done playing hockey.  Compared to some of the lower end CHL teams, there is so much money invested into the NCAA that it makes so much more sense to take advantage of the opportunity a big school gives you.  If a kid here gets drafted in the seventh round by the Oil Kings/Hitmen/Giants, great.  These are rich teams in big cities.  If he gets drafted by... Kootenay or Moose Jaw, odds are he'll decline the option and go elsewhere.  For all those reasons, the USHL is just as attractive to young players because of its direct recruiting process into the NCAA.  Should NIL (name, image, likeness) rights ever get approved, you can say goodbye to any young Canadian hockey phenom - they're going straight to the Big Ten.

Now to Canada.  Starting with the elephant in the room: Hockey Canada.  What a joke this organization ended up becoming.  A complete old boy's club that put millions of taxpayer dollars into covering up sexual assault allegations/lawsuits.  The national governing body of hockey in this country... is quite literally a national embarassment.  It should not come as any surprise then that this organization has done absolutely nothing to improve hockey development.  Look at any peewee or bantam league and it's all the same coaching tactics: dump and chase, dump and chase.  Canada really has all the talent in the world, but if you're a parent, you're taking a long look at the alternative options the US has to offer.

Here's another thing that's happened recently.  The BCHL has separated itself from Hockey Canada and become an independent league.  Along with the 2018 WJC scandal, they felt limited by the recruitment restrictions and wanted to be more like the USHL.  As such, the league has started to bring in more American players.  All the players themselves have committed to various schools in the States.  The fate of the BCHL is unclear, with the richest clubs (ie. Penticton/Vernon) keeping things afloat.  It's a pay-to-play league with even more money and more politics on the line.  Nothing grows talent better than... money and politics.

The separation of the BCHL has made waves across the Western provinces.  The AJHL is rumoured to be splitting of from Hockey Canada as well.  On top of that, more and more hockey academies are no longer affiliated with HC.  It's a trickle-down effect that ultimately hurts any kind of future national development program (which really doesn't exist in a Canadian context).

There's more to say, but I'll leave it here.  Anyone who has actually paid attention to hockey development in Canada already knows how broken our system is, especially compared to USA Hockey.  We might be the most talented hockey nation in the world, but we're doing young kids zero favours when it comes to actually developing that talent.  And that is something we should be ashamed, not proud of.

[VegasCanuck]

1 hour ago, Miss Korea said:

DISCLAIMER: This is not a post-mortem of the World Juniors.  It wasn't the best team and didn't have the best chemistry, but there's more to it than one bad tournament.  After all, we did win the last two years before this.  Again: THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE WORLD JUNIORS.

TL;DR - The Canadian hockey system is good for the very top prospects, and practically nobody else.  It is disjointed, corrupt, and old-fashioned, and is getting completely outclassed by the development system in the United States.

I've put up a couple topics about how a Team USA could potentially beat Team Canada in an international tournament.  The argument would often boil down to the development process employed by both hockey bodies, Hockey Canada and USA Hockey.  Ultimately, even Canadians are choosing to develop their game in the United States.  From Nieuwendyk to Toews/Turris, and now Makar, Fantilli, Celebrini, etc., more and more Canadians are bolting for the USHL/NCAA because it's better than anything CHL can offer.

The NCAA route has become more attractive for a bunch of reasons.  It gives you four more years of development in a system that actually focuses on improving your game as an adult.  You get scholarships to high-end schools that you can utilize after you're done playing hockey.  Compared to some of the lower end CHL teams, there is so much money invested into the NCAA that it makes so much more sense to take advantage of the opportunity a big school gives you.  If a kid here gets drafted in the seventh round by the Oil Kings/Hitmen/Giants, great.  These are rich teams in big cities.  If he gets drafted by... Kootenay or Moose Jaw, odds are he'll decline the option and go elsewhere.  For all those reasons, the USHL is just as attractive to young players because of its direct recruiting process into the NCAA.  Should NIL (name, image, likeness) rights ever get approved, you can say goodbye to any young Canadian hockey phenom - they're going straight to the Big Ten.

Now to Canada.  Starting with the elephant in the room: Hockey Canada.  What a joke this organization ended up becoming.  A complete old boy's club that put millions of taxpayer dollars into covering up sexual assault allegations/lawsuits.  The national governing body of hockey in this country... is quite literally a national embarassment.  It should not come as any surprise then that this organization has done absolutely nothing to improve hockey development.  Look at any peewee or bantam league and it's all the same coaching tactics: dump and chase, dump and chase.  Canada really has all the talent in the world, but if you're a parent, you're taking a long look at the alternative options the US has to offer.

Here's another thing that's happened recently.  The BCHL has separated itself from Hockey Canada and become an independent league.  Along with the 2018 WJC scandal, they felt limited by the recruitment restrictions and wanted to be more like the USHL.  As such, the league has started to bring in more American players.  All the players themselves have committed to various schools in the States.  The fate of the BCHL is unclear, with the richest clubs (ie. Penticton/Vernon) keeping things afloat.  It's a pay-to-play league with even more money and more politics on the line.  Nothing grows talent better than... money and politics.

The separation of the BCHL has made waves across the Western provinces.  The AJHL is rumoured to be splitting of from Hockey Canada as well.  On top of that, more and more hockey academies are no longer affiliated with HC.  It's a trickle-down effect that ultimately hurts any kind of future national development program (which really doesn't exist in a Canadian context).

There's more to say, but I'll leave it here.  Anyone who has actually paid attention to hockey development in Canada already knows how broken our system is, especially compared to USA Hockey.  We might be the most talented hockey nation in the world, but we're doing young kids zero favours when it comes to actually developing that talent.  And that is something we should be ashamed, not proud of.

Chicago's fault....they didn't loan Bedard.....even if it's not Chicago's fault, let's just go with that anyway, I HATE Chicago and am much happier if everything is just, Chicago's fault!

 

[Gurn]

Time for another 'royal commission'?

Seems we've done this before, about 20-25 yrs back?

[PureQuickness]

6 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

DISCLAIMER: This is not a post-mortem of the World Juniors.  It wasn't the best team and didn't have the best chemistry, but there's more to it than one bad tournament.  After all, we did win the last two years before this.  Again: THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE WORLD JUNIORS.

TL;DR - The Canadian hockey system is good for the very top prospects, and practically nobody else.  It is disjointed, corrupt, and old-fashioned, and is getting completely outclassed by the development system in the United States.

I've put up a couple topics about how a Team USA could potentially beat Team Canada in an international tournament.  The argument would often boil down to the development process employed by both hockey bodies, Hockey Canada and USA Hockey.  Ultimately, even Canadians are choosing to develop their game in the United States.  From Nieuwendyk to Toews/Turris, and now Makar, Fantilli, Celebrini, etc., more and more Canadians are bolting for the USHL/NCAA because it's better than anything CHL can offer.

The NCAA route has become more attractive for a bunch of reasons.  It gives you four more years of development in a system that actually focuses on improving your game as an adult.  You get scholarships to high-end schools that you can utilize after you're done playing hockey.  Compared to some of the lower end CHL teams, there is so much money invested into the NCAA that it makes so much more sense to take advantage of the opportunity a big school gives you.  If a kid here gets drafted in the seventh round by the Oil Kings/Hitmen/Giants, great.  These are rich teams in big cities.  If he gets drafted by... Kootenay or Moose Jaw, odds are he'll decline the option and go elsewhere.  For all those reasons, the USHL is just as attractive to young players because of its direct recruiting process into the NCAA.  Should NIL (name, image, likeness) rights ever get approved, you can say goodbye to any young Canadian hockey phenom - they're going straight to the Big Ten.

Now to Canada.  Starting with the elephant in the room: Hockey Canada.  What a joke this organization ended up becoming.  A complete old boy's club that put millions of taxpayer dollars into covering up sexual assault allegations/lawsuits.  The national governing body of hockey in this country... is quite literally a national embarassment.  It should not come as any surprise then that this organization has done absolutely nothing to improve hockey development.  Look at any peewee or bantam league and it's all the same coaching tactics: dump and chase, dump and chase.  Canada really has all the talent in the world, but if you're a parent, you're taking a long look at the alternative options the US has to offer.

Here's another thing that's happened recently.  The BCHL has separated itself from Hockey Canada and become an independent league.  Along with the 2018 WJC scandal, they felt limited by the recruitment restrictions and wanted to be more like the USHL.  As such, the league has started to bring in more American players.  All the players themselves have committed to various schools in the States.  The fate of the BCHL is unclear, with the richest clubs (ie. Penticton/Vernon) keeping things afloat.  It's a pay-to-play league with even more money and more politics on the line.  Nothing grows talent better than... money and politics.

The separation of the BCHL has made waves across the Western provinces.  The AJHL is rumoured to be splitting of from Hockey Canada as well.  On top of that, more and more hockey academies are no longer affiliated with HC.  It's a trickle-down effect that ultimately hurts any kind of future national development program (which really doesn't exist in a Canadian context).

There's more to say, but I'll leave it here.  Anyone who has actually paid attention to hockey development in Canada already knows how broken our system is, especially compared to USA Hockey.  We might be the most talented hockey nation in the world, but we're doing young kids zero favours when it comes to actually developing that talent.  And that is something we should be ashamed, not proud of.

 

So I have no dog in this fight. I'm not affiliated with Hockey Canada in any way. I don't know any of their higher ups (and vice versa), nor do I know anyone in the system. I do have a question for you about this rant: would you have said the same thing when team Canada won gold?

 

The TSN panel (Bob McKenzie) pointed out that Canada in their last 8 tournaments had: four gold, two silvers, one fifth round finish (this tourny), and a sixth round finish a few years ago. Canada's development programs may not be perfect, but the results speak for themselves.

 

Meanwhile, Sweden comparatively has paled significantly in these tournaments, DESPITE its undeniable talents, with all due respect to them. Would you have laid the same criticism with them?

 

And if you look at Team USA: the results are mixed.

 

I think you should reconsider the premise of your argument. As for the NCAA level, there's A LOT of players that don't make the NHL (if we call that proof of success). I think you're overstating the success of NCAA/Team USA. We've had a Hobey Baker winner Adam Gaudette fall to us and where is he now?

 

For every successful story that you hear, there's another story where a player doesn't work out. And guess what? There's no perfect system. We have some outstanding WJHC tournaments and those players may or may not end up in the NHL.

Edited January 3 by PureQuickness

[Miss Korea]

44 minutes ago, PureQuickness said:

 

So I have no dog in this fight. I'm not affiliated with Hockey Canada in any way. I don't know any of their higher ups (and vice versa), nor do I know anyone in the system. I do have a question for you about this rant: would you have said the same thing when team Canada won gold?

 

The TSN panel (Bob McKenzie) pointed out that Canada in their last 8 tournaments had: four gold, two silvers, one fifth round finish (this tourny), and a sixth round finish a few years ago. Canada's development programs may not be perfect, but the results speak for themselves.

 

Meanwhile, Sweden comparatively has paled significantly in these tournaments, DESPITE its undeniable talents, with all due respect to them. Would you have laid the same criticism with them?

 

And if you look at Team USA: the results are mixed.

 

I think you should reconsider the premise of your argument. As for the NCAA level, there's A LOT of players that don't make the NHL (if we call that proof of success). I think you're overstating the success of NCAA/Team USA. We've had a Hobey Baker winner Adam Gaudette fall to us and where is he now?

 

For every successful story that you hear, there's another story where a player doesn't work out. And guess what? There's no perfect system. We have some outstanding WJHC tournaments and those players may or may not end up in the NHL.

 

You are completely missing the point of this post.  More and more Canadians are choosing to leave Canada as teenagers and develop their game in the United States.  Guys like Makar, Fantilli, Celebrini.  Cale Makar is indeed the prime example of someone who chose NOT to go to the WHL because he thought college gave him more opportunities to develop his game.  And he was 100% right.  These guys all represent Canada internationally, but they chose college hockey over the CHL.  It's happening at a more frequent rate, and for obvious reasons. 

 

But my argument isn't even about high profile lottery pick players.  It's about guys who are not as talented and choose the college route instead.  Even European players are starting to enter the NCAA system.  Guys like Hagelin, Blueger, Lagesson, and Olofsson have all made NHL careers by going to college and not the CHL.  Every year the Canucks sign free agents from college, and some of them are even Canadian.  Chris Tanev is Canadian.  Akito Hirose is Canadian.  Ironically, our team's CHL graduates are largely foreigners - Miller, Garland, Hronek, Zadorov, Suter.  But the majority of our American players went to college instead - Demko, Hughes, Boeser, Lafferty, Joshua, DeSmith.  

 

On top of that, as more leagues across Canada separate from Hockey Canada, more Americans are starting to flood our junior systems.  Leagues like the BCHL or AJHL aren't good for local kids anymore.  If they don't get drafted by big WHL teams like Calgary or Vancouver or Edmonton, it's better to go to college instead.  Unless you are the best of the best (ie. going in the first few rounds of the NHL draft), your surest bet is to go the NCAA route.

 

Your response is exactly what I mean when I talk about Canadian pride and arrogance.  Our success at the world juniors has made you completely blind to the reality of hockey development in Canada today.  The United States has surpassed Canada as the best place to develop talent.  That's why more and more Europeans are choosing NCAA over the CHL.  That's why more Canadians are choosing NCAA over their own backyard.  Obviously this means America's international hockey prestige will grow at Canada's expense in the long run, since US kids get a head start through the USHL and the NTDP.

[vcBrett]

Nice to know im not the only one barking up this tree.

 

So many people wills scoff at this argument or accuse you of being "anti-Canadian", I know none of thats true.

There is nothing more Canadian than wanting and expecting our governing hockey institutes to maintain the highest quality of professionalism and performance.

 

Nobody is disputing Canada's #1 spot in the hockey world, but to think that we cant ever be dismounted from that spot is exactly how any downfall begins.

The  Swiss, the Germans, even the Latvians have all made major strides in narrowing the gap between themselves and the elite nations. 

It feels like the states are producing more and more elite talent each year.

 

Canadians arent naturally more talented hockey players than others, it has always been our love and commitment for the game that has allowed us to produce so many iconic moments and talented players. Hopefully the recent HC scandal's will start the organization back on the right path. Yet, I cant feel more will need to be done to ensure we dont get surpassed by the ever improving Americans. 

 

Though more parity and competition isnt a bad thing, watching games against the Swiss used to be pointless, you didnt need to watch it to know what would happen. Thats not the case anymore. Games mean more, and are more exciting when the competition is better. 

Although I would say other nations improvements are whats driving that rather than us tailing off.

 

You could argue that its better to not be #1 too, its quite exciting being the underdog and winning an upset.

Perhaps being the best for so long has been a bad thing, instead of hoping for your improvement you end up fearing your decline.

The pressure to continue being the best can sometime take the fun away from the game. Although covering up scandals can do that too. 

 

I just want our country to maintain its love and commitment to the game, to ensure our institutes dont value money and politics more than the game and the young kids who want to play. I want more kids to be able to play the game and be given opportunities to become NHL players. I want Canada to be good example of professionalism and development so we can if not at #1, at least be a force to be reckoned year after year.

 

At the very least I think we can all agree on that.

Edited January 3 by vcBrett
Add new thoughts/typo

[Hairy Kneel]

You know what, we're still going to get our gold medals either next year or the years after. We're that good. The players always maintain an overall high level talent pool. It's our administration that has to keep up.  

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's kind of nice to see other countries stepping up. We need more rivals besides the US. Next year I guarantee we'll be back in the medal round!

It's really cool high round draft picks are all over the tournament. 

[Canuck Surfer]

10 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

DISCLAIMER: This is not a post-mortem of the World Juniors.  It wasn't the best team and didn't have the best chemistry, but there's more to it than one bad tournament.  After all, we did win the last two years before this.  Again: THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE WORLD JUNIORS.

TL;DR - The Canadian hockey system is good for the very top prospects, and practically nobody else.  It is disjointed, corrupt, and old-fashioned, and is getting completely outclassed by the development system in the United States.

I've put up a couple topics about how a Team USA could potentially beat Team Canada in an international tournament.  The argument would often boil down to the development process employed by both hockey bodies, Hockey Canada and USA Hockey.  Ultimately, even Canadians are choosing to develop their game in the United States.  From Nieuwendyk to Toews/Turris, and now Makar, Fantilli, Celebrini, etc., more and more Canadians are bolting for the USHL/NCAA because it's better than anything CHL can offer.

The NCAA route has become more attractive for a bunch of reasons.  It gives you four more years of development in a system that actually focuses on improving your game as an adult.  You get scholarships to high-end schools that you can utilize after you're done playing hockey.  Compared to some of the lower end CHL teams, there is so much money invested into the NCAA that it makes so much more sense to take advantage of the opportunity a big school gives you.  If a kid here gets drafted in the seventh round by the Oil Kings/Hitmen/Giants, great.  These are rich teams in big cities.  If he gets drafted by... Kootenay or Moose Jaw, odds are he'll decline the option and go elsewhere.  For all those reasons, the USHL is just as attractive to young players because of its direct recruiting process into the NCAA.  Should NIL (name, image, likeness) rights ever get approved, you can say goodbye to any young Canadian hockey phenom - they're going straight to the Big Ten.

Now to Canada.  Starting with the elephant in the room: Hockey Canada.  What a joke this organization ended up becoming.  A complete old boy's club that put millions of taxpayer dollars into covering up sexual assault allegations/lawsuits.  The national governing body of hockey in this country... is quite literally a national embarassment.  It should not come as any surprise then that this organization has done absolutely nothing to improve hockey development.  Look at any peewee or bantam league and it's all the same coaching tactics: dump and chase, dump and chase.  Canada really has all the talent in the world, but if you're a parent, you're taking a long look at the alternative options the US has to offer.

Here's another thing that's happened recently.  The BCHL has separated itself from Hockey Canada and become an independent league.  Along with the 2018 WJC scandal, they felt limited by the recruitment restrictions and wanted to be more like the USHL.  As such, the league has started to bring in more American players.  All the players themselves have committed to various schools in the States.  The fate of the BCHL is unclear, with the richest clubs (ie. Penticton/Vernon) keeping things afloat.  It's a pay-to-play league with even more money and more politics on the line.  Nothing grows talent better than... money and politics.

The separation of the BCHL has made waves across the Western provinces.  The AJHL is rumoured to be splitting of from Hockey Canada as well.  On top of that, more and more hockey academies are no longer affiliated with HC.  It's a trickle-down effect that ultimately hurts any kind of future national development program (which really doesn't exist in a Canadian context).

There's more to say, but I'll leave it here.  Anyone who has actually paid attention to hockey development in Canada already knows how broken our system is, especially compared to USA Hockey.  We might be the most talented hockey nation in the world, but we're doing young kids zero favours when it comes to actually developing that talent.  And that is something we should be ashamed, not proud of.

 

This is a good debate.  I am not sure the USHL is better than Canadian Junior? Its at least honest debate.

 

The NCAA is certainly a highly positive route, better than junior in Canada.  Especially from a hockey standpoint in case for top prospects. Training time, FUNDING from a hockey sense, coaching, older competition, SCHOLARSHIPS. Its also positive from the university experience, opportunity to get an education & subsidised living rather than a paycheque. Lower level prospects, who don't see, or may not qualify for college, actually often come to play in Canada vs the USHL.    

 

Junior was designed around being the top competitive recreational league. Sweden, Finland, germany, Czechia & Slovakia, Russia all have semi-pro leagues below their AHL equivalent. Many in the CHL are working, and studying in parallel while playing. That junior charges admission, sponsorships, but not to employ its players has to be a conflict of interest. If the CHL was the top rec league & some teams were universally accepted, say the London Knights, as being great development teams.  All the power to them! Many of the players are just there because they love hockey!

 

Hockey Canada has no equivalent to the USNTDP; where we probably have the hockey population base to service two or three teams near that level?  In Europe, say Sweden, the top prospects can earn jobs in the SHL or Allsvenskan. 

 

Once kids hit 19 this should definitely a next level, and semi pro, over junior.  Any good enough to play there at a younger age welcome. Perhaps with an AHL affiliation?

[SV.]

Canada will always churn out a decent portion of top talents, which will naturally paper over the cracks and give the impression that the program is as good, and will be as good, as it ever has been.  But the analysis of the whole pyramid is spot on, otherwise.

Development in the U.S., on the surface, is much more multi-layered and also doesn't appear to be rife with nepotism and favouritism like it is across the CHL.

In theory, just based on volume of talent alone, Canada should be virtually walking each WJC, Spengler, and Olympics, but it just doesn't work out that way, and that comes down to the ongoing failures within the program and organization.

[stawns]

6 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

 

You are completely missing the point of this post.  More and more Canadians are choosing to leave Canada as teenagers and develop their game in the United States.  Guys like Makar, Fantilli, Celebrini.  Cale Makar is indeed the prime example of someone who chose NOT to go to the WHL because he thought college gave him more opportunities to develop his game.  And he was 100% right.  These guys all represent Canada internationally, but they chose college hockey over the CHL.  It's happening at a more frequent rate, and for obvious reasons. 

 

But my argument isn't even about high profile lottery pick players.  It's about guys who are not as talented and choose the college route instead.  Even European players are starting to enter the NCAA system.  Guys like Hagelin, Blueger, Lagesson, and Olofsson have all made NHL careers by going to college and not the CHL.  Every year the Canucks sign free agents from college, and some of them are even Canadian.  Chris Tanev is Canadian.  Akito Hirose is Canadian.  Ironically, our team's CHL graduates are largely foreigners - Miller, Garland, Hronek, Zadorov, Suter.  But the majority of our American players went to college instead - Demko, Hughes, Boeser, Lafferty, Joshua, DeSmith.  

 

On top of that, as more leagues across Canada separate from Hockey Canada, more Americans are starting to flood our junior systems.  Leagues like the BCHL or AJHL aren't good for local kids anymore.  If they don't get drafted by big WHL teams like Calgary or Vancouver or Edmonton, it's better to go to college instead.  Unless you are the best of the best (ie. going in the first few rounds of the NHL draft), your surest bet is to go the NCAA route.

 

Your response is exactly what I mean when I talk about Canadian pride and arrogance.  Our success at the world juniors has made you completely blind to the reality of hockey development in Canada today.  The United States has surpassed Canada as the best place to develop talent.  That's why more and more Europeans are choosing NCAA over the CHL.  That's why more Canadians are choosing NCAA over their own backyard.  Obviously this means America's international hockey prestige will grow at Canada's expense in the long run, since US kids get a head start through the USHL and the NTDP.

 

They have to play junior in Canada before they play in the NCAA, for the most part.  The bchl split from HC was a bit of a strange move, but hasn't really had much of an effect on the league itself, it's still doing pretty well and is still a development league for the NCAA, which it's always been.

 

Jr A hockey is for kids who look to hockey to pay for their education and major junior is, generally, for kids hoping to make hockey their profession, though most still get some of their education paid for when it's over 

 

To me, the single biggest issue that will bring down hockey in Canada is cost.  Fewer and fewer kids are playing because fewer and fewer families can't afford it.  The trickle down is that if parents never played, their kids probably won't either.

 

On the positive side, more girls are playing than ever beforw

Edited January 3 by stawns

[Gurn]

1 Hockey is expensive to play-more Canadians have less money.

2 CHL does offer scholarships- but that is for after the kids play hockey-while in college you play at the same time as you get a degree.

3 Less games equals more practice time, and more education time.

4 Less games is easier on the body, and less travel is less dangerous, during the road trips. College likely has less travel distance between individual rinks as well.

5 College/university will have weight rooms on campus- access to physio therapy, nutritional advice etc will be better as the University will be offering courses in those fields, and those students will need to practice on someone.

6 More time to hangout, with friends and meet girls/boys; as well as form potential 'power' relationships, that can be leveraged for the kids future-that might not include hockey.

 

 

[Miss Korea]

6 hours ago, Hairy Kneel said:

You know what, we're still going to get our gold medals either next year or the years after. We're that good. The players always maintain an overall high level talent pool. It's our administration that has to keep up.  

 

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's kind of nice to see other countries stepping up. We need more rivals besides the US. Next year I guarantee we'll be back in the medal round!

It's really cool high round draft picks are all over the tournament. 

 

Yet another person here is missing the point because they think Canada is so good at hockey.  CANADIAN kids are going to the UNITED STATES to play hockey.  They are doing so because hockey development in the USA is objectively better in almost every way, while Hockey Canada is dealing with corruption and scandals.

 

Those Canadian kids going to the US are still going to suit up for Team Canada.  We are still going to win gold medals.  But we as Canadians should be embarrassed to see this trend happening.

 

2 hours ago, stawns said:

 

They have to play junior in Canada before they play in the NCAA, for the most part.  The bchl split from HC was a bit of a strange move, but hasn't really had much of an effect on the league itself, it's still doing pretty well and is still a development league for the NCAA, which it's always been.

 

Jr A hockey is for kids who look to hockey to pay for their education and major junior is, generally, for kids hoping to make hockey their profession, though most still get some of their education paid for when it's over 

 

To me, the single biggest issue that will bring down hockey in Canada is cost.  Fewer and fewer kids are playing because fewer and fewer families can't afford it.  The trickle down is that if parents never played, their kids probably won't either.

 

On the positive side, more girls are playing than ever beforw

 

There are some positives in Canada, particularly with the growth of USPORTS.  But ultimately the NCAA is the best option for any Canadian who wants to play college hockey.

 

The BCHL split has absolutely had trickle down effects.  Hockey academies (both old and new) across BC are now unaffiliated with Hockey Canada.  The AJHL is now seriously considering breaking off as well.  There is more money to be made by bringing in American players.  At the same time, not all the teams have the financial backing the way juggernauts like Vernon/Penticton enjoy.  So whether the league stays afloat is now in question.

[PureQuickness]

33 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

Yet another person here is missing the point because they think Canada is so good at hockey.  CANADIAN kids are going to the UNITED STATES to play hockey.  They are doing so because hockey development in the USA is objectively better in almost every way, while Hockey Canada is dealing with corruption and scandals.

 

Those Canadian kids going to the US are still going to suit up for Team Canada.  We are still going to win gold medals.  But we as Canadians should be embarrassed to see this trend happening.

 

 

There are some positives in Canada, particularly with the growth of USPORTS.  But ultimately the NCAA is the best option for any Canadian who wants to play college hockey.

 

The BCHL split has absolutely had trickle down effects.  Hockey academies (both old and new) across BC are now unaffiliated with Hockey Canada.  The AJHL is now seriously considering breaking off as well.  There is more money to be made by bringing in American players.  At the same time, not all the teams have the financial backing the way juggernauts like Vernon/Penticton enjoy.  So whether the league stays afloat is now in question.

 

Ok your logic is seriously falling apart. People go to the states for things in general. And yet if the US hockey is so good at everything, wouldn't the American bred players produce similar if not better results than the Canadians? I just gave you an equivalent 8 year period. The Americans are actually doing worse than us. They have fewer gold medals and have equally done worse like us (like 5th place).

 

You listed a lot of players that had a lot of success. Part of why we don't have much success with the Canadian development: our drafting! None of these players are polished and we haven't had much luck with the high picks, let alone the mid to low round picks.

 

As for the other players that we have like Miller and Hronek that you mentioned in the other post: they were developed by someone else. In fact, until Benning, we were very poor at drafting. That is the reality of the Gillis era who you could literally count on one hand the number of players that went onto do something significant in the NHL.

 

And you accuse me of Canadian pride because I disagree with your premise haha. Fantastic.

 

 

Edited January 3 by PureQuickness

[stawns]

20 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

Yet another person here is missing the point because they think Canada is so good at hockey.  CANADIAN kids are going to the UNITED STATES to play hockey.  They are doing so because hockey development in the USA is objectively better in almost every way, while Hockey Canada is dealing with corruption and scandals.

 

Those Canadian kids going to the US are still going to suit up for Team Canada.  We are still going to win gold medals.  But we as Canadians should be embarrassed to see this trend happening.

 

 

There are some positives in Canada, particularly with the growth of USPORTS.  But ultimately the NCAA is the best option for any Canadian who wants to play college hockey.

 

The BCHL split has absolutely had trickle down effects.  Hockey academies (both old and new) across BC are now unaffiliated with Hockey Canada.  The AJHL is now seriously considering breaking off as well.  There is more money to be made by bringing in American players.  At the same time, not all the teams have the financial backing the way juggernauts like Vernon/Penticton enjoy.  So whether the league stays afloat is now in question.

When are they going to the US?  For college and major junior.  Guess what?  That's not new.  I played in the bchl in the late 80's and guess where a big chunk of my teammates went from there?  That's right, NCAA.  

 

And hockey academies have always been unaffiliated with hockey Canada, that's nothing new

Edited January 3 by stawns

[PureQuickness]

6 hours ago, vcBrett said:

Nice to know im not the only one barking up this tree.

 

So many people wills scoff at this argument or accuse you of being "anti-Canadian", I know none of thats true.

There is nothing more Canadian than wanting and expecting our governing hockey institutes to maintain the highest quality of professionalism and performance.

 

Nobody is disputing Canada's #1 spot in the hockey world, but to think that we cant ever be dismounted from that spot is exactly how any downfall begins.

The  Swiss, the Germans, even the Latvians have all made major strides in narrowing the gap between themselves and the elite nations. 

It feels like the states are producing more and more elite talent each year.

 

Canadians arent naturally more talented hockey players than others, it has always been our love and commitment for the game that has allowed us to produce so many iconic moments and talented players. Hopefully the recent HC scandal's will start the organization back on the right path. Yet, I cant feel more will need to be done to ensure we dont get surpassed by the ever improving Americans. 

 

Though more parity and competition isnt a bad thing, watching games against the Swiss used to be pointless, you didnt need to watch it to know what would happen. Thats not the case anymore. Games mean more, and are more exciting when the competition is better. 

Although I would say other nations improvements are whats driving that rather than us tailing off.

 

You could argue that its better to not be #1 too, its quite exciting being the underdog and winning an upset.

Perhaps being the best for so long has been a bad thing, instead of hoping for your improvement you end up fearing your decline.

The pressure to continue being the best can sometime take the fun away from the game. Although covering up scandals can do that too. 

 

I just want our country to maintain its love and commitment to the game, to ensure our institutes dont value money and politics more than the game and the young kids who want to play. I want more kids to be able to play the game and be given opportunities to become NHL players. I want Canada to be good example of professionalism and development so we can if not at #1, at least be a force to be reckoned year after year.

 

At the very least I think we can all agree on that.

 

I'm a big supporter at promoting the game. I recognize that other nations are doing far better now than they used to be. However, the reasons why the countries are doing better are partly the development in their respective countries, as well as going overseas. A lot of those players went through the Canadian system (one that OP is criticizing) while others go through the American side. The ones that go through these systems tend to get more attention and thus get drafted (which in turn may or may not be an indication of success).

 

Canada is not necessarily slacking off in its development. It's that players are legitimately getting good. I remember when Sweden, Finland, US, and Canada were the only countries that would've won anything. However, this is starting to change in recent years. The US lost against Latvia in that epic matchup. Yes, the same US system that OP is vaunting in their post.

.

The Swiss are still quite a ways away, but you can see more and more Swiss going into the NHL. They haven't actually won a medal since 1998. It sucks, but they're trying to get better (and they are). They used to be a thoroughly defensive team, but now they are starting to score more - a lot more. They have changed their game style. Czechia and other countries are no longer pushovers.

 

Anyway, the point that OP is making has plenty of holes and they're apparently not addressing them because they want to criticize Hockey Canada for some reason.

Edited January 3 by PureQuickness

[PureQuickness]

4 hours ago, SV. said:

Canada will always churn out a decent portion of top talents, which will naturally paper over the cracks and give the impression that the program is as good, and will be as good, as it ever has been.  But the analysis of the whole pyramid is spot on, otherwise.

Development in the U.S., on the surface, is much more multi-layered and also doesn't appear to be rife with nepotism and favouritism like it is across the CHL.

In theory, just based on volume of talent alone, Canada should be virtually walking each WJC, Spengler, and Olympics, but it just doesn't work out that way, and that comes down to the ongoing failures within the program and organization.

 

The results don't even add up to what the OP is saying.

 

If we were to assume that Hockey Canada is absolutely inept at developing players, or they're a corrupt organization: why do we have more gold medals in RECENT MEMORY (let alone historically) than the US? Let's ignore the historical data beyond 10 years. We have more success than the US (seen below)

 

 

This is Canada's: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_men's_national_junior_ice_hockey_team

 

 

Somehow, our corruption and inept development system is overachieving than the US?

 

Ridiculous and it's not a "spot on analysis". Yikes.

 

The evidence doesn't match up to what OP is saying.

 

Edited January 3 by PureQuickness

[HKSR]

4 hours ago, Gurn said:

1 Hockey is expensive to play-more Canadians have less money.

2 CHL does offer scholarships- but that is for after the kids play hockey-while in college you play at the same time as you get a degree.

3 Less games equals more practice time, and more education time.

4 Less games is easier on the body, and less travel is less dangerous, during the road trips. College likely has less travel distance between individual rinks as well.

5 College/university will have weight rooms on campus- access to physio therapy, nutritional advice etc will be better as the University will be offering courses in those fields, and those students will need to practice on someone.

6 More time to hangout, with friends and meet girls/boys; as well as form potential 'power' relationships, that can be leveraged for the kids future-that might not include hockey.

 

 

Bang on.  I think a lot of it has to do with education opportunities rather than hockey development. 

[Miss Korea]

1 hour ago, PureQuickness said:

 

Ok your logic is seriously falling apart. People go to the states for things in general. And yet if the US hockey is so good at everything, wouldn't the American bred players produce similar if not better results than the Canadians? I just gave you an equivalent 8 year period. The Americans are actually doing worse than us. They have fewer gold medals and have equally done worse like us (like 5th place).

 

You listed a lot of players that had a lot of success. Part of why we don't have much success with the Canadian development: our drafting! None of these players are polished and we haven't had much luck with the high picks, let alone the mid to low round picks.

 

As for the other players that we have like Miller and Hronek that you mentioned in the other post: they were developed by someone else. In fact, until Benning, we were very poor at drafting. That is the reality of the Gillis era who you could literally count on one hand the number of players that went onto do something significant in the NHL.

 

And you accuse me of Canadian pride because I disagree with your premise haha. Fantastic.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, PureQuickness said:

 

I'm a big supporter at promoting the game. I recognize that other nations are doing far better now than they used to be. However, the reasons why the countries are doing better are partly the development in their respective countries, as well as going overseas. A lot of those players went through the Canadian system (one that OP is criticizing) while others go through the American side. The ones that go through these systems tend to get more attention and thus get drafted (which in turn may or may not be an indication of success).

 

Canada is not necessarily slacking off in its development. It's that players are legitimately getting good. I remember when Sweden, Finland, US, and Canada were the only countries that would've won anything. However, this is starting to change in recent years. The US lost against Latvia in that epic matchup. Yes, the same US system that OP is vaunting in their post.

.

The Swiss are still quite a ways away, but you can see more and more Swiss going into the NHL. They haven't actually won a medal since 1998. It sucks, but they're trying to get better (and they are). They used to be a thoroughly defensive team, but now they are starting to score more - a lot more. They have changed their game style. Czechia and other countries are no longer pushovers.

 

Anyway, the point that OP is making has plenty of holes and they're apparently not addressing them because they want to criticize Hockey Canada for some reason.

 

51 minutes ago, PureQuickness said:

 

The results don't even add up to what the OP is saying.

 

If we were to assume that Hockey Canada is absolutely inept at developing players, or they're a corrupt organization: why do we have more gold medals in RECENT MEMORY (let alone historically) than the US? Let's ignore the historical data beyond 10 years. We have more success than the US (seen below)

 

 

This is Canada's: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_men's_national_junior_ice_hockey_team

 

 

Somehow, our corruption and inept development system is overachieving than the US?

 

Ridiculous and it's not a "spot on analysis". Yikes.

 

The evidence doesn't match up to what OP is saying.

 

If you haven't been paying attention, the US junior teams have absolutely reached parity with Canada in terms of pure talent.  Even in the NHL, a fully stacked US Olympic team could absolutely go toe to toe with Canada today.  The results depend on how you perceive things.  Every year, more and more Americans are getting drafted into the NHL, and the opposite case for Canadians.  There are so many current NHL players who were not ready as 18/19 year olds, didn't make Team Canada/USA, but went to college for 3/4 years and became solid NHL regulars.  That's because these schools actually focus on developing your game rather than just maximizing profit.

 

Here are some facts.  The rate of American rookies entering the NHL has gone way up.  The rate of Canadian rookies entering the NHL has gone down.  The rate of American college kids entering the NHL has skyrocketed.  The rate of Canadian kids going through NCAA and becoming NHL players has gone way up.  The rate of CHL players entering the NHL has gone down.  The level of corruption, money and politics in Canada has made this country a less attractive prospect for kids and their parents looking to go professional.  The majority of CHL teams are underfunded and terrible for player development.  If you aren't getting drafted by the big teams, it's best if you just go to the NCAA where you can develop for 4 more years with the best coaching/technology, and enjoy everything else that comes with college.

 

You can choose to be completely ignorant of the state of junior hockey in this country.  That's on you.  Meanwhile the skill drain southward continues.  Celebrini chose college.  Fantilli chose college.  Makar chose college.  Accept the reality that high profile players AND low profile players believe college gives them a better chance for NHL success than junior hockey in Canada.

[MikeBossy]

I think the thing which is more of an issue is goaltending. Seems that the more dominant goalies in these tournaments aren't Canadian. We used to have goalies playing in the World Juniors who stole games for us - now not so much. And I agree with other who have pointed out Canadian kids have always went south to play hockey as the scholarships are more readily available to the mid tier players.

[Northern_Nuck]

 I think it’s more the politics of jr hockey and NHL trying to showcase 1st rd picks and highly touted future draft picks. Reilly Heidt is leading the WHL and didn’t even get an invite and Andrew Cristall was another obvious Snubbing. There’s something funny going on with the team selection. 
 But I guess the USA does the same as they seem to prefer kids that went through their system as opposed to kids that left to go play in the CHL. 

[Miss Korea]

1 hour ago, stawns said:

When are they going to the US?  For college and major junior.  Guess what?  That's not new.  I played in the bchl in the late 80's and guess where a big chunk of my teammates went from there?  That's right, NCAA.  

 

And hockey academies have always been unaffiliated with hockey Canada, that's nothing new

 

What's new is the level of control Hockey Canada has.  It's gone way down.  What's also new is the rate of Canadian kids going to college and coming out with NHL contracts.

 

You are an alumnus of the BCHL - cool!  I'm sure you've been closely following the changes they've made.  The league is in a state of Flux, kept afloat by the rich teams that are bringing in tons of American kids.  They are no longer restricted by the local recruitment rules.

 

16 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Bang on.  I think a lot of it has to do with education opportunities rather than hockey development. 

 

The most controversial thing about USA Hockey is its team selection for international tournaments.  For WJCs they tend to reward players who stay within the USHL and NTDP, putypically cutting kids who leave for the CHL.  Judging by the rapid growth of American talent in the NHL, they have a lot to be proud of.  This includes the women's side, where USA's best players are almost all under the age of 25.

 

Compare that to Hockey Canada.  They have been an absolute gongshow these past few years.  Scandal after scandal.  Cover-up after cover-up.  Multiple presidents and the entire board of directors resigned in disgrace.  Almost all the big sponsors pulling out.  Debates in the House of Commons over taxpayer funding.  The rot of Hockey Canada goes all the way to the top, and if you ask anyone down below, it's clear that youth hockey in Canada is just an old boy's club with a revolving door of coaches who teach the same old dump-and-chase tactics.  How anyone thinks this country is somehow immune to the insane corruption and politics of its hockey body is beyond me.

 

The draw of the NCAA extends well beyond education.  Obviously the degree is a massive pull.  But the college experience is infinitely better than getting drafted to somewhere like Owen Sound or Swift Current.  These teams are worth $1.3 million and $950K respectively, according to TSN.  In $CAD. They don't have the money to keep up with the coaching and facilities that a Big 10 school can provide.  What's the net value of Boston University?  Apparently... $8 billion.  How can the small fry teams of the CHL compete with the big schools in the Northeast?

[HKSR]

2 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

What's new is the level of control Hockey Canada has.  It's gone way down.  What's also new is the rate of Canadian kids going to college and coming out with NHL contracts.

 

You are an alumnus of the BCHL - cool!  I'm sure you've been closely following the changes they've made.  The league is in a state of Flux, kept afloat by the rich teams that are bringing in tons of American kids.  They are no longer restricted by the local recruitment rules.

 

 

The most controversial thing about USA Hockey is its team selection for international tournaments.  For WJCs they tend to reward players who stay within the USHL and NTDP, putypically cutting kids who leave for the CHL.  Judging by the rapid growth of American talent in the NHL, they have a lot to be proud of.  This includes the women's side, where USA's best players are almost all under the age of 25.

 

Compare that to Hockey Canada.  They have been an absolute gongshow these past few years.  Scandal after scandal.  Cover-up after cover-up.  Multiple presidents and the entire board of directors resigned in disgrace.  Almost all the big sponsors pulling out.  Debates in the House of Commons over taxpayer funding.  The rot of Hockey Canada goes all the way to the top, and if you ask anyone down below, it's clear that youth hockey in Canada is just an old boy's club with a revolving door of coaches who teach the same old dump-and-chase tactics.  How anyone thinks this country is somehow immune to the insane corruption and politics of its hockey body is beyond me.

 

The draw of the NCAA extends well beyond education.  Obviously the degree is a massive pull.  But the college experience is infinitely better than getting drafted to somewhere like Owen Sound or Swift Current.  These teams are worth $1.3 million and $950K respectively, according to TSN.  In $CAD. They don't have the money to keep up with the coaching and facilities that a Big 10 school can provide.  What's the net value of Boston University?  Apparently... $8 billion.  How can the small fry teams of the CHL compete with the big schools in the Northeast?

I disagree.  If my son had the choice between NCAA and CHL because of his hockey prowess, I would encourage him to go the NCAA route to get the education on top of the hockey development.   

 

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

 

Also, a college or university doesn't spend all of their money on sports.  Education still comes first.

 

Edited January 3 by HKSR

[Miss Korea]

2 minutes ago, HKSR said:

I disagree.  If my son had the choice between NCAA and CHL because of his hockey prowess, I would encourage him to go the NCAA route to get the education on top of the hockey development.   

 

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

I think your kid would be grateful.  He gets to go to a nice school in a cool city, rather than throwing the dice and hoping for Vancouver/Calgary/Edmonton.  He also gets a full 4 years of development if needed.  Better medical facilities, better training facilities, better paid coaches, bigger/more physical competition.  And if he goes NHL, he even gets to be a free agent.

 

Again - the CHL does have a comprehensive scholarship program, and Canada's own USPORTS program has really made some big strides.  But if the NCAA ever lets its athletes make money off their name/image/likeness (NIL), day goodbye to Canadian junior hockey.

[PureQuickness]

11 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

What's new is the level of control Hockey Canada has.  It's gone way down.  What's also new is the rate of Canadian kids going to college and coming out with NHL contracts.

 

You are an alumnus of the BCHL - cool!  I'm sure you've been closely following the changes they've made.  The league is in a state of Flux, kept afloat by the rich teams that are bringing in tons of American kids.  They are no longer restricted by the local recruitment rules.

 

 

The most controversial thing about USA Hockey is its team selection for international tournaments.  For WJCs they tend to reward players who stay within the USHL and NTDP, putypically cutting kids who leave for the CHL.  Judging by the rapid growth of American talent in the NHL, they have a lot to be proud of.  This includes the women's side, where USA's best players are almost all under the age of 25.

 

Compare that to Hockey Canada.  They have been an absolute gongshow these past few years.  Scandal after scandal.  Cover-up after cover-up.  Multiple presidents and the entire board of directors resigned in disgrace.  Almost all the big sponsors pulling out.  Debates in the House of Commons over taxpayer funding.  The rot of Hockey Canada goes all the way to the top, and if you ask anyone down below, it's clear that youth hockey in Canada is just an old boy's club with a revolving door of coaches who teach the same old dump-and-chase tactics.  How anyone thinks this country is somehow immune to the insane corruption and politics of its hockey body is beyond me.

 

The draw of the NCAA extends well beyond education.  Obviously the degree is a massive pull.  But the college experience is infinitely better than getting drafted to somewhere like Owen Sound or Swift Current.  These teams are worth $1.3 million and $950K respectively, according to TSN.  In $CAD. They don't have the money to keep up with the coaching and facilities that a Big 10 school can provide.  What's the net value of Boston University?  Apparently... $8 billion.  How can the small fry teams of the CHL compete with the big schools in the Northeast?

 

Ok, it's not news that the US has a plethora of money. This has almost always been the case in recent memory. However, despite that, is the US really as good as you say?

 

For a country that has so much money invested into it, they are all but equal to us in terms of international performance. The results again speak for themselves. You can choose to ignore how well Canada does with regards to medals, but we don't see a translation of this so-called success. Certainly your points are not proof of Hockey Canada's corruption.

 

The US if you've been paying attention to politics is incredibly corrupt from top to bottom. We are not even mentioning parties because they're BOTH suffering from the same issues. They have politicians taking bribes, whether that is from domestic parties, or foreign (!) ones. I would imagine that the level of corruption that you speak of with Canada is on a similar scale, certainly not any less.

 

I think your premise is very difficult to defend when it comes to corruption and politics. Canadians are not necessarily more noble than the US. The US' corruption seemingly has been accepted. You haven't highlighted a single argument against the other countries who don't succeed internationally in hockey and you've obviously glossed over the Americans' issues with winning hockey tournaments.

 

From how I see it, you are simply too focused on criticizing Hockey Canada and ignoring evidence that doesn't support your points. You are biased, but you won't re-consider your main point which is to criticize Hockey Canada. Again, I have absolutely no reason to defend the organization, nor the country. Show us proof. You gave us shiny numbers and assertions, but there's no result to speak of that supports your stance.

Edited January 3 by PureQuickness

[PureQuickness]

42 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

 

If you haven't been paying attention, the US junior teams have absolutely reached parity with Canada in terms of pure talent.  Even in the NHL, a fully stacked US Olympic team could absolutely go toe to toe with Canada today.  The results depend on how you perceive things.  Every year, more and more Americans are getting drafted into the NHL, and the opposite case for Canadians.  There are so many current NHL players who were not ready as 18/19 year olds, didn't make Team Canada/USA, but went to college for 3/4 years and became solid NHL regulars.  That's because these schools actually focus on developing your game rather than just maximizing profit.

 

Here are some facts.  The rate of American rookies entering the NHL has gone way up.  The rate of Canadian rookies entering the NHL has gone down.  The rate of American college kids entering the NHL has skyrocketed.  The rate of Canadian kids going through NCAA and becoming NHL players has gone way up.  The rate of CHL players entering the NHL has gone down.  The level of corruption, money and politics in Canada has made this country a less attractive prospect for kids and their parents looking to go professional.  The majority of CHL teams are underfunded and terrible for player development.  If you aren't getting drafted by the big teams, it's best if you just go to the NCAA where you can develop for 4 more years with the best coaching/technology, and enjoy everything else that comes with college.

 

You can choose to be completely ignorant of the state of junior hockey in this country.  That's on you.  Meanwhile the skill drain southward continues.  Celebrini chose college.  Fantilli chose college.  Makar chose college.  Accept the reality that high profile players AND low profile players believe college gives them a better chance for NHL success than junior hockey in Canada.

 

I want to mention about this point specifically: the college route is the SAFE/FALLBACK route for hockey players. If you go all-in on hockey and it doesn't pan out, what happens? It would be almost foolish.

 

And it's weird that you haven't even talked about the European players like Pettersson who don't have this same level of education that the other players have.